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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.20180821 Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission Work Session August 21, 2018 Chairperson Skippy Mesirow called the meeting to order at 4:32. Commissioners in attendance: Teraissa McGovern, Scott Marcoux, Skippy Mesirow, Jimmy Marcus, Ryan Walterscheid, Ruth Carver, Rally Dupps, Spencer McKnight Absent: Kelly McNicholas Kury Staff present: Jeannine Stickle, Records Manager Andrea Bryan, Assistant City Attorney Ben Anderson, Planner Jordan Gray-Dekraai, Engineer COMMISSIONER COMMENTS Mr. Mesirow commented that it’s nice to have nearly full attendance from the commissioners. STAFF COMMENTS None. PUBLIC COMMENTS None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Mr. Marcoux moved to approve the minutes from July 21st, 2018. Mr. McKnight seconded. All in favor. Motion carried. DECLARATION OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST None. PUBLIC HEARINGS None. OTHER BUSINESS Wayfinding project – presentation and discussion with Commissioners Mr. Anderson introduced himself. He stated that he is representing staff from the Engineering, Parks, and Community Development departments. He gave background on this project, stating that the project came out of the Bicycle and Pedestrian Master Plan that the Parks and Engineering departments had worked on. The general feedback from the public has been that the amenities within the trails and open space system are often difficult to find and get to, and visitors and residents aren’t always aware of designated pedestrian and bicycle routes. The other issue that the consultant team on this project addressed was the problem with coherence with signage in town. The City has contracted with RSM Design and Design Workshop. This first phase is really trying to get at what the project is calling a phased study of this issue and ultimately trying to come up with a conceptual plan for the wayfinding elements and this system. After meeting with several stakeholder groups, including the Planning and Zoning Commission at this meeting, this project will go to a City Council work session where the feedback will be presented and direction from City Council will be sought. The Planning and Zoning Commission is not being asked to make a formal resolution at this point. He introduced the presenters, Ms. KK Closuit, Mr. Ross Burdekin, and Ms. Stephanie Willis from RSM Design and Ms. Anna Gagne Laybourn from Design Workshop. He stated that he will ask the Commissioners some specific questions after their presentation. Mr. Ross Burdekin presented on the consultants’ process thus far. He reiterated that the consultants’ presentation will be on their early concepts and wayfinding strategy to consolidate signage and make an easier pedestrian experience. He stated that Phase 2 will focus on vehicular wayfinding. He stated that they started off the project by defining what Aspen is, who the people are who use the City, what the general character and spirit of the City is. The consultants then defined the goals of the wayfinding program: consolidate different signage systems and make for a much more simple, easy to understand system that navigates different populations and different uses throughout the city. The consultants looked at comparable cities, focusing on the wayfinding system of Jackson, Wyoming, which is comprehensive and helps define the spirit and character of that city. The consultants defined the role of wayfinding as a clear, easy to understand system and all different demographics and populations can make sense out of very easily. They were looking for something authentic with a sense of space, and something that helps define the character of the city. They wanted it to be relevant and cohesive. The vision is to augment what is already existing, which may mean adding or removing signs, but ultimately tying everything together. In analyzing the city, use the Kevin Lynch model image of the city, which breaks down different elements within a city and allowed to consultants to be sure they are navigating people to the proper locations and moving them through the easiest path through the city. They started off by identifying all the major pathways within the City, which Mr. Burdekin showed on the slide. They identified different districts within the city, which they used to categorize different zones that the wayfinding can label and direct people to. After that, they identified landmarks and defined the borders of the City. They then defined nodes, which are the decision-making points in a person’s path of travel. After that, they went through to do an analysis of all the different signs in the city. Mr. Burdekin stated that, overall, simplicity is key regarding signage and more signs doesn’t necessarily mean better navigation. The consultants will look at how to consolidate signage or add more signage in key locations. The overall goal is to create a comprehensive, easy to use system. Mr. Burdekin showed a slide with a diagram that showed how the consultants broke down signage. A sign should include something that identifies where you’re at, where the primary destinations are, and often a distance marker will be included. The benefit of the distance marker is that it makes for a much more walkable environment. If people know the amount of time it takes to walk there, they are much more willing to walk rather than drive. Secondary elements can include a general site map that shows where you are within the City and there can be a more detailed map that shows a central block area. They also included in their presentation some references of signage for inspiration, things that the consultants can pull from while developing their concepts. They also put together a material palate to help define their concepts. Mr. Burdekin showed a slide with their first concept for the signage. It was inspired by Aspen trees. This concept is more light and airy and uses colors of wood and materials that are locally found. He showed a slide with an example of a vertical element with the main identifying area located on top of the sign, with directional messaging located below and a city map below that. That is an example of stacked messaging that people can very quickly understand where they are and where they need to go. Mr. Burdekin stated that he is showing a very abbreviated sign family because the consultants are at a very conceptual level. There could be other designs, maybe some not free standing that could be to existing structures. The overall strategy is to have one larger sign that has a wide-variety of information on it. As the signs get smaller, the amount of information on them decreases. The idea is to give people just enough information to lead you to the next point. He showed another slide with an example of more details and then a quick study of what the sign could look like in context. Mr. Burdekin showed a sample of signs from the second design family, stating that the design is a little bit more heavy-handed and more historically rooted. They used more natural elements in the design, making it darker and the signs stand out more. He stated that it would blend well with the architecture around the town. These signs organize information in the same way as in the previous sign example. He showed an example of the sign in context. Mr. Burdekin showed a sample of signs from the third design family. It is more of a black and white family, which plays off of the aspen trees but has a winter aesthetic. In a way, it combines the previous two families. They can include some clean, bright materials as accents to help lighten the feel of the sign, but use raw, real materials in the middle to strike a balance of summer and winter. He then showed a slide with a few elements of the sign family and a few in context. Mr. Burdekin also showed some examples of a redesign of pedestrian crosswalks, adding some character and making them more defined. He showed how they could incorporate wayfinding into the ground. Mr. Anderson gave the commissions the opportunity to ask questions of the presenters. Mr. Dupps asked if the signs will be changed seasonally. Mr. Burdekin responded that no, it would be one sign system. Mr. Mesirow asked if way finding is really a problem. Mr. Anderson responded that he was going to ask the Commissioners that question. He stated that City Council has been responding to projects that staff, Council, and some members of the community say are very essential things and then there has been pushback in the media about whether or not these problems really exist. As a result, staff are very interested in having that honest dialogue with the Planning and Zoning Commission. He stated that he will raise that question to the Commissioners at the end of the meeting. Mr. Mesirow asked if it’s legal to ride bikes anywhere. Mr. Burdekin stated that it’s illegal to ride on sidewalks, but you can ride a bike on any city street. Mr. Anderson showed a map that illustrates some of the work of the consultant team and staff to identify some of the destinations of where we want people to get to. Jordan from Engineering can talk a little bit more about this, too. The map shows that they are looking at a relatively small number of the very important places in town that we can make sure that people can get to, the Tier One Destinations. Going forward, if there’s the possibility of adding destinations from the secondary and tertiary lists. Mr. Anderson asked the Commissioners what kind of destinations they feel this plan should be identifying. Mr. Marcoux responded that the Belly Up should be added. Mr. Anderson stated that one of the questions for the project is are there going to be commercial enterprises identified in this? At this point, staff are leaning towards no. However, that is something that can be discussed. Mr. Mesirow stated that, to him, there are two different elements of wayfinding that are distinct but overlap and could be built into the same system. One is how we want Johnny to get from the Wheeler to the gondola in the most efficient way. Another one is: what do we want Johnny to find? He stated that when the Commission talked about second-tier business spaces during the moratorium, they talked about a marker that could go on a building to indicate what is there. He stated that he sees great value in the later one, but is not sure about the former, though signs could do both. Mr. McKnight brought up that Mr. Anderson had mentioned that people often don’t know about the Hallam and Hopkins Bike and Pedestrian Way and often bike on Main Street instead. He stated that, if that is actually a problem, that is something that makes sense to be labeled. From a safety standpoint, it might be useful to label where the best places to cross Main Street are. However, he also stated that, though he thinks the signs look great and that the consultants did a great job, he does not want to see these signs in Aspen. Ms. McGovern asked Mr. McKnight if he wants to see signage at all. Mr. McKnight replied that, no. He believes the current signage is sufficient. He stated that he enjoys the interaction with tourists when he has the opportunity to direct them. He reiterated that his personal opinion is no signs. Mr. Dupps agreed. He stated that he does not like the idea of having signs sticking up everywhere. He believes that they are eyesores and in the way. He stated that he would like to not see signs at all. Mr. Mesirow stated that he does not want to diminish the work of staff and consultants. He stated that it is an important question. He reiterated that, to him, there is a distinction between an explanatory sign, but stated that the directional signs feel like an airport or Disney World. Mr. Marcus stated that he would like to offer a counter view. He stated that it’s convenient for people who have lived here for a long time to come from the perspective of not needing signs. He explained that he travels a lot and prefers when things are marked. He thinks clear signage really improves the overall experience to go to a new place and feel like you can get around pretty easily without needing to ask for directions if you don’t want to. He believes that people who are coming here might appreciate it. He also addressed the question of what the signage should be directing towards. He believes that it is tempting to direct people towards businesses, but that is only going to cause more problems since there will have to be a choice of what businesses to direct people to. He believes the project should stay towards public amities and landmarks. He pointed out that locals often give directions based on landmarks, so that would be helpful. He stated again that he feels we should be directing people towards landmarks and public amenities only. Ms. McGovern seconded that. Mr. Marcus asked if the Aspen Art Museum counts as a public amenity. Ms. McGovern stated that she would not categorize that as a Public Amenity, since it is privately owned. Same with ACES. The Red Brick is a City amenity. She stated that she thinks that the City could do better with signage. She does not think that what was presented fits with the character of Aspen. She finds it a little bit heavy-handed. She did like that the larger signs show a map. She stated that there is nowhere in Aspen where you can find a map. Mr. Anderson stated that staff and the consultants are going to hold off on responding to specific points at this time. He asked if the commissioners had any other comments about the destination question. How do we identify them? Mr. Mesirow stated that, if this project is targeted mostly at tourists, and we want them to know where they’re going, he sees a lot of negative that come with the signage program including cost, aesthetic, work and cost to replace when they get out of date. He stated that the majority of tourists bring smartphones with them. He proposed a single standardized app that can help people find what they’re looking for based on the activity that they want to do. Mr. Marcus pointed out that what Mr. Mesirow is talking about is essentially Google Maps. He stated out that there is value in disconnecting people from their phones and encouraging them to be more present in their environment. Ms. Carver stated that she walks around the core every day and she personally thinks that ACES and the Historical Society should be included in the wayfinding project. She also asked the presenters to clearly define what they mean by “amenities.” She also encouraged clear designation of “South” on every map. She believes that most tourists enjoy the experience of finding something on their own and discovering their own Aspen. She stated that she does not think huge signs are necessary. Mr. Anderson showed a slide with the top tier locations that staff have identified. They do not include identifying every single trailhead, but that’s up for debate. The project does identify Mill Street and Galena Street corridor, beginning and the Mill Street Bridge and continuing through to Rubey Park. The Hopkins Street Corridor, Hallam Street Corridor, downtown core. Key tourist destination, which include the gondola, Aspen Institute, and the Rio Grande trail. He stated that he knows that locals have used a lot of the trails and know where they are, but for visitors it can be hard. Also, it can be hard to find the amenities out towards the roundabout, like the Rec Center, the Aspen Music School. Staff and the consultants’ perspective at this point is not moving towards the commercial, but maybe thinking about nonprofit organizations that are central to town, like the Art Museum, Aspen Institute, ACES, as potential Tier One Destinations. He stated that he appreciates the Commissioners’ feedback on that point and asked if they have anything to add to this list. Mr. Mesirow stated that there are regional areas of Aspen that should be identified. Ms. Carver stated that the John Denver Sanctuary should be added. Mr. Anderson stated that there are a lot of important amenities in that area of town, and the Sanctuary is certainly one of those places. Ms. McGovern stated that adding ACRA is important, especially the informational kiosk. Mr. Marcoux stated that the skateboard park should be added. Ms. Carver suggested adding a big map on the back of the ACRA Kiosk. Mr. Mesirow stated that that is a very good idea. Mr. Walterscheid stated that he believes that the mapping is backwards, conceptually. He stated that, if you’re in the core, you don’t need to see a full map of town, all you need to know is that the next destination is around the corner. The further out you are, the more routes you might want to see to get where you’re going. Mr. Burdekin stated that that is a good point. There are two different approaches they can take: one is looking inside out and one is outside in. He does still think there would need to be a map of the core, but it could be very minimal. Mr. Anderson stated that they plan on talking to ACRA and the people who work at the kiosk and ask about places people are trying to get to. Mr. Mesirow suggested also talking to the taxi drivers, pedicab, and the Downtowner. Ms. Carver stated that there’s another Chamber office in the Wheeler that people don’t know is there. Mr. Marcoux stated that the Rio Grande and Rubey Park wash rooms should be included. Mr. Anderson showed the map on the slide and explained the color coding. He explained that the dark turquoise color are places that are around the core. The green are places that are farther away and then the yellow. With that organization, they are trying to get at the hierarchy of levels of information, like Ryan was mentioning. Ms. Carver suggested changing the turquoise color to red because it is too similar to the green. Mr. Anderson commented that that is partially because of the monitor. Mr. Dupps stated that someone who is red/green colorblind could not read the map. Mr. Anderson asked about the basic concept of the hierarchy with different levels of information as you get to different places in town. Mr. Mesirow stated that, if this project moves ahead, it wouldn’t make sense to have large signs where they’re not needed or insufficient signs where you need more. Ms. McGovern stated that the existing signs in the west end, that are part of the street sign, seem to be sufficient. They look distinct from road signs or highway signs. She stated that she likes that. Mr. Walterscheid suggested that maybe the signs Ms. McGovern was referring to might just need an addition. Ms. McGovern stated that it seems like current signs haven’t kept up with new amenities. Mr. Burdekin stated that updating signage is part of the project. If it goes forward the project will organize the many different systems that the City has now. A lot of current signage can possibly be reused after it’s reskinned to make it feel like it’s one sign family. There are signs that can be added, but there are many that can be removed. Mr. Marcoux suggested that, if the City moves forward with this project, the signs remain thinner so that snow couldn’t build up. Mr. Burdekin stated that the shape of the signs is planned to have them be very durable to work well with various weather conditions. He reiterated that these are just a few elements in the system. There would be a much larger system and the signs that are being presented are the most heavy-handed signs, because they’re the easiest to see and have the biggest impact. Mr. Dupps commented that there is already a sign pollution problem in this town and that he is completely against seeing these signs in Aspen. He suggested that instead of adding more signs, we just edit the signs that we have. He suggested that the banner across Main Street should come down. Ms. McGovern defended the banner across Main Street. Ms. Carver stated that she did not know that Hallam is supposed to be a bicycle way. She has never noticed a sign on Hallam. Mr. Anderson replied that there is signage. Ms. McGovern added that there are also balustrades. Mr. Anderson stated that he does not think that people are not as familiar with Hallam. People are more familiar with the Fourth Street pedestrian way. Ms. Carver asked if the blinking lights at the signal crossings can be changed to blink on both sides, for safety reasons. Ms. McGovern replied that they do blink on both sides. Mr. Dupps commented that he has seen wrecks almost happen on Eighth Street because people don’t see the pedestrian lights flashing until the last minute. Ms. Carver asked if there are ways of changing that. Mr. Anderson responded that the City is working on many ways of making things safer for pedestrians, including flashing signals. He asked for specific comments about the color, texture, pattern, scale, hierarchy of the signs. Ms. McGovern asked if the designs comply with our sign code, as currently written. Mr. Mesirow commented that the second design is preferable to the others because it blends in the best. The white sign will get dirty easily. Mr. McKnight reiterated that his preference is no signs. Mr. Anderson stated that he will momentarily address the concern that this project is not needed and told Mr. McKnight that he appreciates his candor. Ms. Carver stated that whatever material is used for the signs should not be able to be easily scratched. She also expressed concerns about the print on the maps being too small to be easily read. Mr. Anderson asked for more comments on color or the options. Mr. Mesirow commented that he likes the informal reference in the metal work. Ms. Carver commented that she does not like the Aspen leaf in the new City logo. Mr. Mesirow stated that he likes the design of the crosswalks and should be explored further. Mr. Dupps cautioned that people are going to scratch off letters and make new words. Mr. Burdekin stated that the letters would be done in stainless steel. Ms. Carver commented that she does not like the crosswalks. Mr. Anderson asked if there is support for putting things in the ground. Mr. Marcus commented that inlaying wayfinding into the concrete would be subtle, durable, and could look very nice. Mr. Burdekin commented that signage on the ground can get covered by snow in the winter, which the Commissioners should keep in mind. Messaging in the ground should be considered part of a layered experience. There are many situations where stand up signage may be needed in addition. He stated that the designs of the signs can be adjusted to be more integrated into the environment. Mr. Marcus commented that some areas of City sidewalks are heated. Mr. McKnight asked if the City tested crosswalks that have snow melting capabilities. Ms. Gray-Dekraai replied that she doesn’t think the City has any heated crosswalks. Mr. Dupps stated that the crosswalks create more garbage and stated that he dislikes them even more than the visual signs. Ms. Carver stated that she dislikes the patterns in the crosswalks. She is in favor of making crosswalks safer. She commented that she almost gets run over all the time, particularly at night and in the winter when visibility is lower. People aren’t going to like them and she believes they are a waste of money. Mr. Anderson stated that there was an image in the concept development that showed directional arrows. He asked what the Commissioners thought about that. Mr. Mesirow suggested a green lane for the bike friendly paths. Ms. McGovern commented that it reminds her of a subway line. She stated that it doesn’t seem to fit with the Aspen aesthetic. Mr. Dupps commented that it reminds him of the Denver Children’s Hospital. Ms. Carver stated that she believes this plan is a bit too much, but she would like to see the City improve its crosswalks and the signage. Mr. Walterscheid commented that anything painted on the ground will need to be repainted every year. Mr. McKnight added that things will not look good halfway through the year, either. Mr. Mesirow asked Mr. Anderson to present evidence that this project is really needed. Mr. Anderson read a statement from the Aspen Area Community Plan that directs the City to develop pedestrian and bike trails. He stated that, in conversations with stakeholder groups when putting together the Bike and Pedestrian Master Plan, the Parks and Engineering departments found that both residents and visitors were unaware of many of these existing trails and how to get to them. The signage plan would address safety, efficiency, defining the visitor experience and getting people to beloved destinations. To get people from streets to trails was one of the initial outcomes. It was pulled out of the Bike and Pedestrian Master Plan because staff understood that it would need to be more of a public process. He asked Ms. Gray-Dekraai if she wanted to add anything. Mr. Burdekin commented that Mr. Anderson’s summary was a good one. She stated that the project came out of wanting to get people to upgraded trails and bike corridors. Mr. Anderson asked the Commissioners if they agree that the problem statements in the list are things that need to be addressed. He reminded the Commissioners that the basic concept of the project has already been vetted by Council. But as the project moves forward, staff want to make sure that the problem statements are valid. The response to these needs can be many different things. It’s a matter of developing a concept that is appropriate for Aspen. He asked if there is agreement that wayfinding is a problem the City can work on to improve. Mr. Mesirow stated that these problems are worthwhile ones to think about. However, he stated that the problem has not been sufficiently demonstrated. He stated that housing is a much larger problem for Aspen and wayfinding should be a much lower priority. Mr. McKnight stated that he agreed with everything that Mr. Mesirow said. He commented that the designs the consultants came up with are gorgeous and that he loves them, but he does not want to see them in Aspen. He does not agree that wayfinding is a problem. He stated that he believes the signs would detract from rather than add to the character of Aspen. He does not want the town to have a resort feel like Beaver Creek or Disney World. However, he is in favor of exploring anything that has to do with safety. Mr. Dupps stated that he agrees with Mr. McKnight and Mr. Mesirow. He commented that the font on the street signs, which has been around for a long time, reflects the character of Aspen. However, the signs in the design could be anywhere. Ms. McGovern stated that she thinks signage could be increased to let people know where the pedestrian ways are. She believes that it needs to be done at a much lower level than what is being proposed. She added that cleaning up our existing signage is important. However, the extend being proposed is a waste of staff time and budget. She reiterated that she likes the idea of putting a map on the ACRA kiosk. Mr. Burdekin reiterated that this presentation was intended to be a brief overview. He stated that the consultants always try to focus on three things with way-finding: systems. One is certainty, meaning giving clear directions where direction is needed, for comfort and safety. Layer number two is variety. You do want people to be exploring and moving throughout the environment. Number three is elements of surprise or delight. These already exist in the City, the plan is to help people access them. He stated that aesthetics is a different conversation and he thanked the Commissioners for their helpful comments in that area. He stated that the designs can be adjusted and modified. Mr. Dupps stated that Mr. Burdekin missed Ms. Carver’s comment about people coming to Aspen and enjoying the journey of exploring the City. Mr. Burdekin stated that that was his point. Mr. Dupps stated that certainty can hinder the exploration process. Mr. Burdekin stated that he meant “certainty” to be more about safety. Above that, wayfinding should promote exploration. Ms. Carver urged the staff and consultants to review where all the signage is located and assess if it just needs to be cleaned up or completely redone. She commented about the colored map on the observation deck. Ms. Carver stated that many tourists do not know they need to push the button at pedestrian crosswalks. She also stated that crosswalks in the City need to be safer. Also that bicyclists should have to stop at stop signs. She commented that signage needs to be functional before worrying about aesthetics and it needs to be readable. She stated that maps should always say “South” at the top of the map. She also stated that Paepcke Park needs a toilet. Mr. Anderson stated that he will pass that comment along to the parks department. He asked Ms. Carver if she sees the problems statements that were in the memo are things that need to be addressed. Ms. Carver commented that Hunter is hard to find. She also stated that people are relatively safe, except from bike or car traffic. Mr. Marcus stated that he agrees with some of the previous comments in their concerns about the signs creating clutter or distraction. However, he stated that having no signage is unrealistic. He suggested a compromise where signage exists that blends into the environment. The only problem with the plan is with cohesion and is a great opportunity to address that. Mr. Burdekin stated that there are definitely ways the consultants can reference the past but modernize it. Mr. Walterscheid stated that less is more in this case. He stated that if the plan moves forward, it should be at the same scale of signage that exists now. He seconded Ruth’s call for more analysis of the true challenges of getting around. He commented that the Aspen Area Community Plan is really a wishlist and everyone needs to think about how much of that wishlist gets acted on. Mr. Anderson asked if there are final comments. Mr. Marcoux stated that less is more. He believes less maintenance is best so that the City can concentrate on other issues. Mr. Anderson asked for last comments from staff or the consultant team. Mr. Mesirow asked that the consultants not take the Commissioners’ comments as judgement on t he quality of their work. He stated that the Commissioners appreciate the work that they’ve done. Mr. Burdekin stated that he understands completely. Mr. Anderson thanked the commissioners for their time and comments and stated that the team would digest the feedback. Ms. Carver asked where the consultant team is from. Mr. Burdekin stated that the project is based out of Dallas but that he and Ms. Willis are based out of Boulder. They are working with Design Workshop, which is local to Aspen. Mr. Mesirow motioned to adjourn the meeting. Mr. Dupps seconded. All in favor. Motion carried. Jeannine Stickle Records Manager