HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19840605 RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
Chairman Perry Harvey called the meeting to order at 5: 01 p.m. with
commissioners Jasmine Tygre, Pat Fallin, Welton Anderson, Lee
Pardee, and Roger hunt present.
COMMISSIONERS' COMMENTS
Pardee asked what action Council has taken on the Top of Mill
and 700 South Galena. Alan Richman, planning office, replied
that Council has met twice but there has been few results.
Hunt has been contacted by two citizens who are concerned about
a proposed ordinance to disallow duplexing somewhere in the
city . This has upset someone ' s sale of a duplex size lot .
Where is this in the system? How soon can this get through
the system? Richman answered it will be in front of the Commission
July 3rd. Harvey asked if this was put forward to Council by
a west end group. Richman answered yes . Harvey asked what
was Council ' s action. Richman understood that Council discussed
sponsoring it and decided to send it to the Commission. Paul
Taddune, city attorney, stated that it is the feeling of the
majority of the Council that the west end should be single family
rather than duplex configuration. The Council is responding
to a group of citizens who feel strongly about maintaining the
single family configuration. Harvey noted Turley received permission
to do a lot split on Lake Avenue, for single family units .
Taddune noted that the Turley lot split is what precipitated
this citizen action. There was also a threat to start an initiative
if the Council did not respond. There is a general resistance
to large duplexes in the west end. Hunt said this is upsetting
a substantial portion of the community. Richman commented that
he is receiving calls every day . Dunaway said he is hesitant
to say it is the consensus of the Council. Richman said Council
does not even know the issue. Taddune said the Council voted
three to two to send it to the Commission . Dunaway reported
this action is not sponsored by the West End Association, but
by some private citizens in the west end.
OLD BUSINESS
ANDREWS CONDITIONAL USE FOLLOW-UP
Taddune said the memo dated May 31 is self-explanatory. It
attempts in as brief of a format as possible to report the frus-
tration encountered by all involved over the Andrews residential
conditional use permit. Mrs. Andrews is present to offer her
version of the problem. Essentially, the Andrews are no longer
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Regular Meeting Plannina and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
interested in a residential use of the condominium. The reason
is that the cost of the three-hour fire wall makes the residential
use economically prohibitive. There are other considerations
addressed briefly in his memo that are addressed in the letter
form Kathryn Bach, Bob Andrews' daughter. Prior to the conversation
with Bob Andrews, the Andrews sought clarification and were
interested in the residential use permit . The Andrews are no
longer interested in the residential use.
Mrs . Andrews, applicant, wished to go on record that it is not
that the Andrews are not interested in proceeding. There have
been tremendous economic setbacks because of the fire wall . (Jasmine
Tygre arrives in the chambers. ) Ms. Bach did the legal research.
She reported that Bach concluded there was not a meeting of
the minds because a three-hour fire wall (which Hunt imposed
upon the Andrews and the Commission agreed on last fall) is
very different from the three-hour fire separation. Jim Wilson
did not speak at that meeting. Everything, ceilings and floors,
needs to be encased with the fire separation.
There was originally a $12, 000 estimate for a fire wall . The
Andrews agreed to that. Later Chic Collins and Jim Wilson estimated
the increase to be between $40, 000 and $80, 000 for a separation
which would meet the municipal code. The Andrews are defeated .
The Andrews give up. They are walking away. They are not attempting
to live there anymore.
They want to go on record that there has been discrimination
against them. She cited 570 Bleeker Street. There are four apartments
with one over a welding shop, one over a woodworking shop, and
one over a paint shop. Clone of the apartments have a three-
hour fire separation as required by the municipal code. She
cited Section 1447-1448 , and Tables 5-A and 5-B. Her site is
zoned R-3 occupancy as a lodge and dwelling mixed with Table
5-B, a three-hour fire resistance separation which means ceilings,
floors, walls . The four apartments on Bleeker are zoned SCI .
If one person is treated one way, and one another, there is
discrimination.
Harvey asked for clarification between fire wall and fire separa-
tion. Taddune understood that a residential use would occupy
part of the building. In order to take full advantage of SCI
uses a three-hour fire wall separation has to be installed to
protect the residential uses from the high end of the spectrum
commercial uses, for example, welding . The problem here is
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5, 1984
that if a residential use is allowed accessory to the commercial
use, the SCI use would be diminished unless the Andrews encased
the commercial use. Encasing would be done so that welding
or the high end of the spectrum commercial uses would not jeopardize
anyone living adjacent to that other space.
He recalled from reading the minutes of the Commission, that
the Commission was concerned about limiting SCI uses. The Commission
did not want the residential component to restrict the commercial
component. This created problems for the Andrews and for the
people who wanted to occupy the commercial space.
There have been some references made to other areas of the city.
He informed the Commission and the public that these cases are
being investigated to see if the units are in compliance. Also
the Commission and the applicant should be advised that conditional
use applications are discretionary, they are based on the facts
of the particular situation. Therefore, the situation that
exists in one part of the city does not necessarily mean that
same situation ought to exist with respect to the application
in front of the Commission. The Commission does has discretion
in conditional use situations.
Hunt added that the building use site is a pre-existing condition.
How does the building relate to the code of its time? That is
what it will be judged on, not that it happens to comply with
the present regulations which will be determined by the building
department if in fact they are investigating this. Bill Drueding,
building department, said the building department is investigating
Bleeker and noted there is a problem.
Taddune sympathized with the layman' s viewpoint about the unequal
treatment and with the argument that something is being done
in another part of the city, therefore, why cannot someone else
do it. The staff ' s response is that may be improper. Two wrongs
are not going to be allowed. It is a difficult situation.
The Andrews purchased and condominiumized the property with
the idea of using it differently than is allowed.
Mrs . Andrews added that the property is empty now. Across the
street lower rents are offered. Her building has an old fashion
furnace system, the cost of utilities is high. The building
is unoccupied. Sales have fallen through also because of the
SCI zoning. If she could have applied for neighborhood-commercial
and SCI combined she could have sold or leased the space. She
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
does not have the money to apply for rezoning.
Drueding said there is a residential unit there which is supposedly
accessory to a business . There has never been an operating
business there yet.
Taddune commented this proceeding is only setting the record
straight that certain conditions were imposed and those conditions
could not be met . The Andrews may be interested in meeting
those conditions but they do not have the economic wherewithal
to persist in residential use of the space. There is the residual
problem of the Sarah Pletts condominium, but this is not the
subject of the update .
Mrs . Andrews asked for the park dedication fee back. Taddune
said the Andrews are entitled to a reimbursement of the park
dedication fee since they are not pursuing the residential use.
Harvey asked for an explanation of the discrepancy in estimates,
$12,000 to $40 ,000-$80, 000 . Drueding said he was part of the
meetings and privy to a number of meetings with Gary Esary.
There is a difference between a three-hour fire wall and a three-
hour fire separation . A three-hour fire wall simply means a
wall. A three-hour fire separation means encasing the entire
space . A three-hour fire separation is much more expensive
than a three-hour fire wall. Jim Wilson was aware the entire
time that a three-hour fire separation was required. It was
never clear to the Commission what was required. There was
a lack of communication.
Hunt said the root of the problem is there were nontechnical
people using technical terms. When he used the term fire wall
he envisioned the units being separable by a vertical wall from
the rest of commercial activity. That is a three-hour fire wall .
Is there something different in the design between a wall and
a separation. Drueding clarified that a three-h-our fire separation
includes floor, ceiling and walls. Mrs. Andrews said the Andrews
and Pletts units are located on the top floor, the commercial
space was below which means encasing the ceilings.
Anderson reviewed the letter from Bach and the Uniform Building
Code. He tried to relate each item in the permitted uses, Section
24-3 .2 . The "B" occupancy is gas and service stations, wholesale
and retail stores, office buildings, factories and workshops
using materials not highly flammable or combustible. . . The
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
"H" occupancy requires a three-hour fire wall . The "B" occupancy
requires a one-hour fire wall or no separation at all . The
permitted use section reads "provided no permitted use creates
unusual traffic hazard, dust, noise, fumes, odor, smoke, vapor,
vibration, glare, or industrial waste disposal problems . " It
should have been interpreted in the first place that it was
a separation not a wall . The only real occupancy allowed in
this zone district is "B" .
Mrs . Andrews said when Jim Rose tried to buy the space it was
discovered that an auto mechanic shop (with welding) was not
an allowed use in the zone. Taddune remarked the mechanic needed
the use of welding in order to repair_ cars ; the mechanic was
not allowed to weld in this particular space because the building
code required a three-hour fire separation as opposed to a three-
hour fire wall . Any SCI use that involves a welding operation
or hazardous or flammable material requires a separation.
Anderson argued that hazardous or flammable materials are allowed
in the SCI zone, including welding shops, according to the chart.
Drueding commented that Jim Wilson, the chief building official,
patrolled the area there and determined there were three uses
he considered not permissable uses in that building. Anderson
said there is no reference to welding as a conditional use .
Drueding said Gilson determined three definite uses that would
be hazardous uses in that area that were permitted by the municipal
code . Flow unusual noise or dust defined is a judgement call
that is hard to enforce. Wilson was quite confident that he
had some uses based on the building code that there were hazardous
uses that were being permitted in that building.
Taddune said they are also health and safety concerns . The
clarification needed from the Commission was whether or not
the Commission was fundamentally concerned about diminishing
the SCI uses. If the Commission is concerned about diminishing
uses, then the accessory residential use should not be permitted
unless there is a three-hour fire separation as opposed to a
three-hour fire wall . If the Commission is not concerned about
diminishing the SCI uses then the problem goes away.
Drueding explained the Andrews are on the second floor . Downstairs
is a commercial space not owned by the Andrews . The Andrews '
unit is a separate residence. A box could be built around the
unit.
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June S. 1984
Penne explained the Andrews were going to operate an equipment
rental business out of their unit . The commercial space was
going to be part of the residential space . Mrs . Andrews said
that was the original idea, but the design changed, the business
would be in the contiguous space downstairs. But this does not
include the front space where the shop used to be which was
up for sale or lease. The Commission was concerned that in
the future some use might come in requiring a fire wall . Hunt
said that is adjacent space he conceived as one commercial-resi-
dential unit. One commercial-residential unit requires a three-
hour fire wall separating it from the rest of the activities
that could be SCI . Drueding said if the Andrews occupied the
space upstairs and downstairs then they could, but this is not
the situation.
Pardee spoke . The issue is does the Commission want to insure
the continued use and availability of SCI uses in the SCI zone.
The SCI uses need to be protected. The SCI uses should not
be diminished by residential accessory uses.
Roger Hunt moved to determine whether the Commission wants to
maintain the integrity of the SCI zone by requiring three-hour
fire separation in compliance with code; seconded by Lee Pardee.
Discussion . Anderson said the Commission needs to vote for
this but the code has not been interpreted correctly. Harvey
discouraged code interpretation. Taddune said staff spent much
time trying to make this work. Different scenarios were tried.
It could not be worked out . He had to defer to the building
department to make in the field type determinations as to what
was hazardous and what was not . Every possible alternative
was explored.
Harvey interpreted the motion as a vote supporting maintaining
SCI at the inconvenience of residential use . All in favor ;
motion carried.
Harvey commented accessory residential use can in certain circum-
stances be of great benefit. There is a lot of SCI space in
this town that is sitting empty. Taddune answered that certain
configurations can accomplish that. This is a situation which
does not work .
Hunt reported for white that there is a definite need for places
for artists to have a place of residence with a shop or studio. what
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
area does this type of zoning belong? Taddune said the home
occupation zone accommodates that.
Bil Dunaway, publisher for the Aspen Times, asked if the residential
and commercial space was on the same floor would the three-hour
fire wall be adequate . Drueding replied if there was a one
story building then three-hour fire walls would be adequate .
But with a second story, fire can burn vertically, therefore
the unit would have to be encased with a fire separation. Dunaway
asked if there was a SCI use on the second floor would the separation
still be required. Drueding explained the fire separation is
required between the business and residential unit. The building
in the past has never been used for residential use. A SCI
use does not require a separation. The code is trying to protect
the safety of the residential use. Anderson noted that between
a less hazardous SCI use and a more hazardous SCI use a separation
is required also. What has happened here is that 900 of the
SCI uses have been eliminated by mandating the worse possible
scenario. Mrs. Andrews would have signed a conditional if and
when the space was sold to a use requiring a fire separation
to build the separation. But could the Andrews be allowed the
conditional use prior to that? But the Andrews were told they
had to pre-construct the fire separation before they would be
allowed their conditional use . The Andrews could not agree
to that. Harvey said the concern was that the Commission was
not protecting the potential for a wide number of SCI uses.
Taddune said there is no need for a motion on the park dedication
fee, the refund will be handled administratively.
OLD BUSINESS
ASPEN MOUNTAIN LODGE EMPLOYEE HOUSING RESOLUTION
Hunt addressed Section 1 . Identify the year of the dollars ($250
and $200 , respectively) in paragraph three and five. Sunny
Vann, planning office, said this is only a conceptual approval .
A PUD agreement will be detailed. A deed restriction which will
have to pass by the housing authority and the city attorney
will be detailed also. Harvey said it is easy to get fixed
at $250 . The inflation factor has to be dealt with . May be
the $250 should be adjusted in accordance with the housing guide-
lines.
Vann said the condition represents an initial start. The guidelines
will need to be discussed. The conditions of the housing authority
applicable have to be discussed. It is inappropriate at conceptual
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
to deal with this; the applicants ' application did not address
this . It will be dealt with prior to final approval . If the
Commission is going to deal with this now, then call in the
housing authority to hammer out the specifics of how rent will
increase over time. An escalation clause will probably be needed.
Hunt addressed a second point on paragraph three. Is the Alpina
Haus to remain in the rental market? Vann said the language
"deed restriction . . . to a maximum rental price guidelines. . . "
means rental only. There is no language about sales. Hunt said
there is no specific language that Alpina Haus will stay in
the rental market, spell this out as early as possible. Vann
argued this change is not appropriate for conceptual but for
final approval .
Harvey suggested language "deed restriction to rental only of
the forty-three. . . " Curtis said that is consistent with the
general submission. Hunt requested the same language in paragraph
five. Pardee suggested replace the $250 figure with "an annual
inflation factor . " Dunaway suggested language "deed restriction
to a rental price guideline in effect at the time. " The rents
escalate and are adopted each year . The intent is to establish
a low income. Doremus said there were no adopted guidelines
for dorms at the time the application was written. Curtis noted
the figure is below the low income guidelines of the housing
authority. Dunaway suggested say 20% below the low income guide-
lines. Vann reiterated this is not the final language.
Harvey did not think an applicant can be asked categorically
to be "x" percentage below the income guidelines. If the Commission
feels the guidelines are not adequate or are too high, then
the Commission can change the guidelines . The 250 or $250 is
a representation.
Vann said this is the GMP representation to the housing authority
on which the housing authority based its recommendation of support.
It is arbitrary to change it lower than the guidelines. Hunt
agreed. It should be indicated that this is the applicants '
representation. What is the year of the dollar the applicants
are talking about? Vann said it is nonspecific. Hunt said
it can be assumed then that it will become specific upon the
development of the housing. Harvey argued according to this
condition it is an absolute, it is fixed to a year. Hunt said
that he is worried about this for the applicants. Dunaway said
the Commission should consider the best interest of the employees.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
Hunt cited rental control housing in New York, it is not particularly
in some cases to the advantage of the employee when the building
is burning and needs to be evacuated.
Vann reiterated the applicants have made a conceptual representation,
based on that conceptual representation the Commission is recom-
mending approval . The specifics will come forth in subsequent
approvals. If there is some question about an aspect of a conceptual
representation, then it is appropriate to make corrections .
The Commission does not need to embellish the approval with
additional details.
Harvey said this has to be worked out with the housing authority.
Fallin commented that a lot of responsibility is being relinquished
to the housing authority . Vann said it was relinquished when
the housing authority was established.
Curtis said the affordability target is %25 of employee wages.
That is below the income guidelines of the housing authority.
The consistent policy on any deed restriction is the price is
indexed to the time when the deed restriction takes place.
The deed restriction per this document takes place prior to
the issuance of the CO for the lodge. There will be an eighteen
month gap prior to the commencement of a deed restriction .
Everything will be indexed until the deed restriction is placed
on the building prior to the issuance of a CO for the lodge.
There will be ample legal language describing that.
Harvey asked if there will be a rental price guideline for dormi-
tories, $300 per month, used at the time the CO is issued. Curtis
said the commitment is for now. That commitment for specific
PUD agreement language will have a rate of indexing based on
the wage increase of the employee or a preset index with the
housing authority. As of today the housing authority guideline
is rents cannot exceed 5% per year. There will be an indexing.
Vann said in the event there is new guideline effective at time
of final approval or preliminary the applicant may well say
this has been supplemented by the following. The applicant
will be asked if this is all right. The housing authority will
evaluate it.
Hunt said the interesting difference in this application is
that the applicants have offered a ceiling price on the units .
He is concerned about the ceiling price . If % 25 happens to
exceed the $250 , will the $250 stay $250 . Curtis clarified
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
that the $257 will also be indexed by the housing authority. The
housing authority is developing an Aspen wage index: that will
tie everything.
Hunt addressed items seven and eight of Section 1 . He wants
to put the applicants on notice that the Commission intends
to review and modify and improve via a possible necessary index.
Is that assumed everywhere in this document? Vann said of course.
Something is submitted for review . The applicants defer to
the original submission but there may or not be certain building
improvements required for the conversion of the units. It is
premature at this point to identify them. They will be identified
at preliminary PUD. The building department may require, for
example, wiring upgrade.
Pardee commented that the Commission wants to see submission
of an acceptable detailed explanation. Vann agreed to rephrase
item seven. The question is not whether the explanation is detailed
or not, but the question is whether the improvements are acceptable.
Hunt addressed number eight . He reported White was concerned
about parking. Is there any employee parking included in the
lodge or 700 South Galena? Vann answered there are ten spaces
designated at the lodge . There is a provision for additional
parking during off season periods. Eight spaces may result in
the submission of the changes in the parking scenario to solve
the problem with the Copper Horse. Doremus said two extra spaces
have resulted from code changes with Ute City Place which is
two blocks away from the Alpina Haus. Given some time the parking
will be worked out.
Hunt addressed number nine, the last sentence: "rent shall include
all utilities. " Will the sale price also include all utilities?
Vann said the item states "rentals" will include utilities, it
does not say sale price determination shall include utilities .
The applicants have proposed including utilities in the rental
price, that is the extent of the proposal . Whether the sale
price will be negotiated to include the common utilities remains
to be seen. Curtis clarified that the base sale price for the
housing authority guidelines today do not include the utilities.
Rents do include all common utilities and common fee assessments.
Individually metered utilities are not included in the rental
guidelines. Sale prices do not include adjustment for the utili-
ties . Vann said the applicants raised the question of common.
Vann did not include it at the time, he was going to check the
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Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
original representation. It is also a specific issue which
should be resolved by the time of the execution of the deed
restriction.
Hunt said the concern is that the developer absorbs an expense,
rent that includes utilities. Does this encourage selling the
units? Vann said the developer will be able to sell the rental
units as the housing authority deems is appropriate within the
market place. The developer does not have carte blanche. Doremus
said the tax write-offs are much more important than the question
of who pays the utilities.
Hunt addressed number eleven. Hunt and White want to include
" . . . shuttle service to augment (to the service that exists at
Water Plant Housing) non-to-low operating times. . . " Harvey
asked if Hunt wants the service operating from non-to-low, if
Hunt wants the lodge to have the responsibility of providing
service, or if Hunt wants to set a standard. Hunt responded
that the basic standard is that the transit service is the same
level that is provided for the Water Plant Housing or Cemetery
Lane; basically the ADC service should be a 30 minute interval
service. Include now that the applicants are expected to augment
the present transportation system to that at Plater Plant and
Cemetery Lang^ . Otherwise, the applicants should try to justify
a lower service.
Vann noted that last week the majority position resolved that
the solution to the transportation as proposed was acceptable.
Pardee suggested avoiding this discussion now. He suggested
the language "an acceptable schedule for shuttle. " The Commission
will have to review this again at preliminary. Vann said this
will not be seen at preliminary. The Commission is only endorsing
the employee housing solution . Only Ute City Place will be
reviewed later by the Commission. Harvey interjected item one,
item two, item seven, and item eight all make reference to preli-
minary. Vann corrected himself . The Commission could defer
at this item. Hunt agreed to yield this discussion to preli-
minary.
Hunt addressed paragraph seven in Section 3 . Harvey asked if
this paragraph covers the entire resolution. Vann answered
no . The reason this paragraph is not in Section 1 is because
he specifically excerpted from their proposal all the relevant
issues . There is nothing else in the proposal about employee
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
housing that is not specifically referred to here.
Hunt raised the same issue as in Section 1 , paragraph nine,
in Section 2, paragraph one : "rent shall include utilities. . . "
Harvey understood if the developer constructed the building
and metered the units separately, which could be a city requirement
now, then the rent will include no utilities except may be the
electricity and water used for the maintenance of the grounds .
The statement that "rent shall include all utilities" is misleading.
For the benefit of Council, this should be clarified.
Vann suggested the language that "rent shall include all utilities
or otherwise provided for by the housing authority. . . " The
Commission will not have the final say. Harvey asked if the
building department will require separate metering for electricity
and water . Dunaway said individual metering is not an actual
requirement. It is more economical to have separate meters. It
is not possible to get water meters for each apartment building.
Harvey said this is true for condominiums . Pardee asked why
put the language in the condition at all . Vann put it in because
the applicants represented it . Pardee argued if the housing
office requires this, then it is a moot point . Harvey said
the housing office requires all common utilities be included
in the rent . This document states that rent shall include all
utilities. Curtis interjected just include "in compliance with
housing authority guidelines. " Harvey commented that metering
each room would not be economical for the Copper Horse or the
Alpina Haus; Ute City Place is different, it is new construction.
Vann suggested delete "all" and state "rent shall include utilities
as provided for by the housing authority guidelines. " Harvey
agreed.
Bunt ' s final comments refer to Section 3, paragraph five. Indicate
that the Commission has endorsed the height variance for Ute
City Place. He assumes a resolution of endorsement will be drafted
to the Board of Adjustment. The Board of Adjustment resolution
should accompany this current resolution. Council will review
this and ask why allow building above the height restriction.
Locate in this resolution the reason the Commission is endorsing
the height variance. Add an endorsement clause by the Commission.
Roger Hunt moved to adopt Resolution 7#84-6 as amended and which
is to be signed by the chairman who is to check the amendments;
seconded by Jasmine Tygre.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Regular Meeting Planning and Zoning Commission June 5. 1984
Discussion. Vann outlines the changes.
1 . There are no changes in the "whereas ' s. "
2. Section 1 , clarify on item three "rental only" and
"utilities be in compliance with the housing authority
guidelines . " Item five will also receive the rental
and utility clarification.
3 . Section 1 , item seven, rewrite to say "acceptable
set of improvements. "
4 . Clarify "rent and utility " any place it shows up :
Section 1, item nine; Section 2, item one; etc.
5 . Section 3, item five, further clarify the Commission ' s
endorsement.
All in favor; motion carried. Pat Fallin opposed.
Harvey adjourned the meeting at 6 : 05 p.m.
P';f I J x � 1>
Barbara Norris, Deputy City Clerk
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