HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.20000725ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25. 2000
Bob Blaich opened the special meeting at 4:40 p.m. with Commissioners Charles
Vresilovic, Roger Haneman, Roger Hunt, Steven Buettow, Ron Erickson, Jasmine
Tygre, Tim Mooney and Bob Blaich present. City staff in attendance: Joyce
Ohlson, Chris Bendon, Sarah Oates, Fred Jarman, Community Development;
Katlu~ Koch, City Clerk.
COMMISSIONER. STAFF & PUBLIC COMMENTS
Jasmine Tygre inquired about the progress of the ADU follow-up. She said that
she thought that an ADU had to be recorded as a deed-restriction on the property
even if it wasn't rented out. She noted that "disclosure" of that fact should be
accomplished upon the sale of the property but if it was not recorded on the plat,
how would anyone know. Joyce Ohlson replied that it should appear on the title
research. Sarah Oates stated that building permits were not issued without the
deed-restrictions being recorded.
Tygre noted that many lodges were being converted into condominiums and
questioned why the housing authority has not actively pursued some of these
lodges for conversion. She said this type of conversion had to be a lot cheaper than
what was being paid for housing people outside of town. Tygre said that if these
lodges were going to be converted into housing, these units should be converted
into affordable housing instead rather than free-market units, She urged that this
opportunity be looked into in depth.
Roger Hunt noted that the ads on TV by realtors used the guest apartment as an
amenity rather than an ADU.
Ron Erickson asked about the realtor signs in the public right-of-way. Sarah Oates
responded that enforcement was done on a complaint-generated basis. Erickson
asked if a letter could be stated with the rules and directed to the Aspen Board of
Realtors.
Bob Blaich noted the approval on the Boomerang last night from City Council. He
said that the fractional ownership was becoming a problem and that it did not come
up before the review with P&Z. Tim Mooney stated that the Patersons did make
representations at P&Z that they would not be the ones interested because the
operations would be attached to the hotel.
Ron Erickson said the L'Aburge cabins were being sold individually with a 6-
month rental restriction; he asked how this would be controlled or tracked. Ohlson
said that some communities required documentation from an owner that a certain
property that has been put to a certain use and that was what Snowmass Village did
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with ADUS. The owner had to show proof through leases and sign an affidavit that
the ADU was put into that use for a certain period of time. Ohlson said that the
city did not build that into our lodge preservation program but did 6-month lease
requirements in our program. Chris Bendon said the 6-month provision was an
incentive in the LTR Program and different from the other programs.
Sven Alstrom, public, stated that he was on HPC at the time of the L'Aburge
review, which included questioning the FAR build out of that property. He said
that he believed that the owners of UAbruge did represent the possibility ora sale
of the units.
Blaich said that his memo was received regarding the Truscott vote and Mayor
Richards asked him if they would attend a meeting with City Council, Housing and
HPC to review the issues. Blaich explained that the agenda was full for next week
and the Mayor asked for the P&Z to possibly reconsider their vote on Truscott.
Ohlson said the intent was for Council to hear the P&Z concerns and ideas about
making recommendations on the improvements of the development plan. Roger
Haneman said that 2 council members shared his concerns on the transportation
issues.
Tim Mooney said that he hoped that the applicant would be prepared. Kathryn
Koch said that it would be the first reading of the Ordinance for City Council.
Charles Vresilovic asked if alternatives would be presented to the items that were
disagreed upon. Ohlson replied that she was not the applicant and could not
answer, but the applicant should be prepared to discuss and address the problems.
Vresilovic said that parking issue was a problem not addressed seriously enough to
reconsider. Vresilovic said that even to replace some units with parking would be
an alternative because parking was an issue and leaving it to management was not
the answer. Blaich noted that P&Z provided the issues and felt positive that
Council wanted to hear from P&Z. Hunt said he was distressed on the responses
from housing on how parking and transportation couldn't be done rather trying to
help solve the problems. Ohlson said the key to the meeting was for Council to
hear the P&Z concerns and issues clearly.
Tygre said that she would like to see possible suggestions for implementation of
transit plans that will make this development more attractive for users of public
transit. She added that a transit option for this property needed to be provided.
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25, 2000
Mooney asked to add a possible design ofa 2 level parking structure, which could
be added onto in the future. He said there should be a better schedule for the
intersection and light.
MOTION: Roger Itunt moved to meet with City Council on August 1,
2000 prior to the regular P&Z meeting. Roger Itaneman second.
APPROVED 7-0.
Chris Bendon provided the schedule of upcoming meetings.
DECLARATION OF CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
None.
PUBLIC HEARING:
TECItNIOUES TO CONTROL HOUSE SIZE. RESOLUTION #42, 2000,
Bob Blaich opened the continued public hearing On the techniques to control house
sizes. Alan Richman said that there were miscellaneous issues to be addressed
beginning on page 29.
~ ADU
Richman said one issue was to create an incentive to bring light and air into sub-
grade ADUs. Ron Erickson asked why create a solution for something that doesn't
work. Erickson said that the ADU program doesn't work so why fine tune it for
someone else to get around a new rule in the code; why not just prohibit ADUs
below ground level. He said until occupancy can be forced, it won't work and he
said just make it mandatory for the developer provide the cash-in-lieu so housing
can build above grade.
Tim Mooney said the commission was in agreement about the abuse of the ADU
program and the developers would continue to gain their square footage and
bedrooms through ADUs. Mooney noted that there were a few people that
voluntarily do build ADUs that weren't required; he said there was still some spirit
in the community to follow the programs. Mooney said that a well lit and used
unit below grade would be utilized and he said that this should be included in the
code and felt it was a good recommendation.
Roger Hunt agreed with Tim that if the ADUs were occupied then it was a plus
even if the ADU was sub-grade. He said that making the ADUs work was another
- issue to this one. He said he did not want to penalize the sub-grade ADU, he
wanted to make the ADU work.
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25, 2000
Jasmine Tygre stated that with the occupancy rate so low on ADUs she said there
was no incentive, particularly when this proposal was to reduce house size. She
said that 100 feet was not a lot but this encouraged something that did not work to
begin with and was not logical for her to understand.
Roger Haneman said that he dittoed Jasmine.
Blaich said that a number of people never intended to use their ADUs. Mooney
said if only one more person would provide an ADU that would help and leave the
ADU as voluntary and not required. Mooney said maybe those people should get
rewarded who provided ADUs. Blaich noted that there were people who needed
the ADU to help pay for their house. The percentage of ADUs rented was under
22%.
Ohlson stated that currently there were some floor area exemptions: 50% of the
floor area for an ADU for either detached or deed-restricted to mandatory
Occupancy; 100% floor area reduction if it were both detached and deed,restricted
mandatory occupancy.
Lorrie Wirmerman, public, invited the commission to see the inside of some of
these buildings. She said that there were so many houses that you could not see the
ridge of Aspen Mountain because of the Design Ordinance (the 9' to 12' no
windows zone). Winnermann said that there was supposed to be a sunset on the
Design Ordinance when it was rewritten. She asked the commission to keep a
positive attitude about the ADU program and thought more than 25% were rented;
she asked to keep the program going because it was meant as in-fill housing that it
was hopeful that it would happen. Lorrie Winnerman said from her letter it was
very clear that every time square footage was cut from these tiny lots in town, to
remember that was living space for a family that could no longer be utilized. She
said that that it now that was living space for the owner and not an ADU that could
have been rented. Winnermann said this was from people from the community that
she dealt with every day. She asked that the commission think about the ways that
people could use their ADUs. She said that one way was to let people use their
garages as garages and not count them against the floor area ratio, then people will
build the ADUs and rent them to the public if you didn't take ½ of the garage.
Sven Alstrom, public, stated that he wanted to compliment Tim for his well-spoken
attitude. He said that he lived in attached above grade ADU and suggested that
everyone reread the Cottage in-fill Ordinance (in the dead housing replacement
Ordinance, 1990). He said the intent of those ordinances was important; circa
1988-90 that if there was a tear down the smaller unit had to be replaced as an
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25. 2000
ADU. He said people did not like the government telling a person what to do with
their property. Alstrom said that almost ½ of his clients do use the ADUs that he
designed. Blaich asked staffto find and review the ordinance for P&Z.
Glenn Rappaport said that them should not be a distinction between above or
below grade ADUs and was micro-managing that doesn't need to be done. Below
grade ADUs could benefit from a lot of light in an area where it was more than the
minimal egress requirement that could offer more privacy than an above grade
ADU. He said the 1980's moat effect began with tapering the ground from the
property line. Blaich said that some of the below grade ADUs were like prison
cells. Rappaport said that the issue was to make something more livable and not
penalize people for living in basements.
Mooney said that this was to allow a person to design a better ADU space because
of some physical characteristic of their yard or house. He said this was not about
philosophy but rather about design. He reiterated that this was to provide an
incentive to haVe a better space designed.
Jasmine Tygre said that this document was to control house size and this was
giving an FAR bonus to something we know doesn't work. Tygre said that it was
a design issue and not to give a FAR bonus. Ohlson said that not compromising
the ADU program at all was a goal of the February meeting.
Joshua Saslove, public, said that if as few as 25% were being used in the city there
was some gain; he said that in the county 30% to 40% were being used as homes.
Mooney said that a cash-in-lieu program meant it was housing that would be built
and that would be used. Saslove said the property owner felt some sense of the
destiny of their property if they built the ADU.
Susan Hilt, public, stated that in other communities there were requirements on the
ADUs for registration of the occupants. Blaich replied that there were many legal
issues involved.
Steven Buettow said that the livability was already built into the cOde with the light
requirement so why give away another I00 square feet for custom guest quarters.
Oates said that 100 square feet of additional space for a lighted area was
substantial and it was in addition to the required 80 feet of window light required.
Sven Alstrom stated that he used a good design to gain more area because it was
also above the ground to gain a reward from the HPC on projects. He felt there
should be distinctions between above and below grade ADUs.
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25. 2000
Blaich said that straw poll of Commissioners Tygre; Buettow, Haneman, Erickson
and Vresilovic removed the entire section on ADU from the resolution;
Commissioners Blaich, Mooney and Hunt did not agree on the removal of the
section. The commissioners wanted council to be aware of their concerns on the
ADU program.
Allowable Height
Richman said the next topic was Allowable Height, page 30. Richman said that
the vast majority of limitation was to 25 feet. for single-family and duplex. He said
the Conservation, LTR, CC and C-1 zone districts did have different height limits
and the zone districts do not have regulations differentiating between uses when
regulating height. Blaich noted that there were private homes that were 40 feet in
the C-1 zone district. Richman said the purpose of this section was to keep the
commercial or lodge units and encourage the development of in-fill and keep
residential at the 25-foot height limitation to support the house size reduction.
Sven Alstrom, public, stated the intent was to reduce house size and said that he
felt that there was lots of work to do on the regulations; reduction of ridge lines
and encourage less Victorian roofs. Alstrom cautioned the height restrictions
because solar access was left out and felt the review of solar access easements
were essential to determine building heights as well as side yard setbacks.
The commission straw vote was all in favor of this section on Allowable Height.
Detached Residential Dwellings
Richman said that Item "C" Detached Residential Dwellings was part of the in-fill
discussion. He said that today residential detached dwellings were only allowed in
the CC zone district if they were designated landmark properties. Richman
explained that that the C-1 zone district should also be encouraged to head towards
commercial and multi-family; a single unit in-fill above a commercial structure
would be considered multi-family in the code. Tygre asked for clarification to add
an "if" to the language in the C-1 zone district section. The commissioners all
agreed on the Detached Residential Dwellings Section.
Duplex of Similar Sizes
Richman said that the Duplex of Similar Size was to try to balance the unit sizes
but then if a smaller unit were left it would at least have a chance to become an
affordable unit to someone who lived and worked here. He suggested even one
unit at ¼ of the other unit's size. Hunt said that the duplex was two units on one
property regardless of size and technically he could argue that an ADU in a
residence was a duplex. Ohlson and Richman said that it was not the same; the
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25, 2000
ADU was accessory. Richman said that the duplex was defined as two principal
dwelling units and could be condominimized. Haneman said that if we told
someone it had to be a larger size wouldn't that reduce the likelihood that it could
be bought by someone locally. Richman said that he and staff felt unconformable
with one unit being 500 square feet and the other 4,000 square feet, but he
understood the point that the smaller the second unit was the more likely that it
would be locally owned. Richman said that in the R- 15A duplexes were required
which was the converse situation mandated the units to be more livable, because
we know that they must be category housing. Tygre said that wouldn't we want to
discourage the bonus for the duplex FAR because of the reduction of house size
intent. Tygre said part of the duplex definition should include the roughly same
size units which would encourage two smaller houses on a duplex lot rather than
the "big house and the pimple". Blaich said the only way to limit the size was to
reduce the amount of total square footage allowed for the overall duplex. Richman
said that would eliminate the advantage of the duplex:
Richman said there was difficulty with the FAR bonuses. Tygre said that detached
units were different than having two units but they read as one, regardless of
whether it was 25%/75% or 50%/50%. Ohlson said that was why the 25%
minimum may alloW a designer enough flexibility to separate the massing.
Buettow said this could be tied to the secondary mass requirement and have 25%
rather than 10% to articulate the big mass. Richman said that would be a
possibility to make it clear that the tw° masses were separated along the lines of
the units. Blaich said it allowed the designer a more creative solution to the mass-
look. The commissioners all agreed on adding this minimum of 25% in principal
for one unit and the language will be brought back in the resolution.
Sven Alstrom said that he agreed with Steve on the secondary mass and having it
written was positive.
Building Models
Richman said that this came from the site visits because the drawings were not the
most accurate representations for what was actually built. He said the concept was
that the commission and the public would benefit from more than just the two-
dimensional representations. Richman asked for feed-back.
Rappaport said that it was important to develop reasonable tools not only for the
review boards but also to allow the public to focus their comments more
accurately. Erickson said that models were necessary anytime a PUD, a building
non-conforming to the code, topographic, conditional use or for any special review.
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25. 2000
Blaich agreed that the model was an important tool for all of the reasons cited.
Erickson said there should be a record (photos of the models kept for a later
check). The commissioners noted that many of the projects that they felt were not
represented properly for the envisioned final product certainly did not get built to
the specifications they reviewed. Rappaport said there were many different kinds
of models. Ohlson said that maybe Rappaport and some other designers could get
together to describe the.property line boundaries of the models. Richman asked if
DRAC needed models. Blaich and Buettow stated that in many cases DRAC
requested models because the designs were not clear.
Alstrom stated that these were good recommendations and specifically say that a
computer generated model was not the equivalent and not acceptable.
Rappaport said that a model taken to the review proCess helps to focus the
comments in a more intelligent way because people do not have to imagine what
the project will look like. Richman said that as an example a model wouldn't be
needed for a special review for a parking space change.
The Lorrie Winnermann letter was discussed regarding window plate heights.
Rappaport noted that the plate heights were between 9 feet and 12 feet. Blaich
noted that Lorrie suggested a tour. Tygre responded that she felt a tour was a very
good idea and the other commissioners agreed.
Casey Clarke, public, said that the architects cannot keep up with all of the code
changes and it has cost a lot of money and time and she could not submit their
plans. She asked how the city would help the architects. Ohlson said that if
somebody had worked on a project prior to a code change, that would be taken into
consideration upon the review process. Richman said that there was still a period
of time after P&Z adopted the new code because it then goes to council for 1~t and
2na readings and public hearings. Blaich noted a hardship case does receive
consideration on the review process. Ohlson said P&Z could make a
recommendation to council to allow for the effective dates to be submitted.
Rappaport said that what may be perceived as the city changing it's mind was
actually that the community was becoming uneasy with what was happening and
the changes in the rules and regulations were the results of citizen input.
MOTION: Roger Hunt moved to table action and continue the public
hearing to August 1, 2000. Jasmine Tygre second. APPROVED 7-0.
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ASPEN PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JULY 25, 2000
MOTION: Roger Haneman moved to reconsider the P&Z action taken
on the Truscott Housing Proposal at the August 1, 2000 meeting. Tim
Mooney second. APPROVED 7-0.
Meeting adjourned at 7:00 p.m.
Transcribed by
Jackie Lothian, Deputy City Clerk
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