HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.hpc.19880927EISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE
MINUTES
City Council Chambers
1st Floor City Hall
September 27, 1988 2:30 p.m.
Meeting was called to order by chairman Bill Poss with Zoe
Compton, Charles Cunniffe, Charlie Knight, Augie Reno and Joe
Krabacher present. Nick Pasquarella and Georgeann Waggaman were
excused.
MOTION: Charlie made the motion to approve the minutes of
September 1st and the 13th. Joe second. All approved. Motion
carries.
COMMITTEE MEMBER AI~ STAFF COMMENTS
Roxanne: The Round table meeting will be in Denver Oct. 28th.
There is another preservation seminar this weekend in Durango and
Frank Gilbert from the National Trust Council will be there as a
guest speaker. Half of our funding comes from the State and
they have to review our program through the National Park
Service and the Federal guidelines. I see two important areas:
maintaining the proper professional balance on the Committee and
also utilizing the Sec. of Interiors standards for review. Those
are the two areas that I think we have been criticized the most
on or would be criticized on.
Augie: I have a letter that relates to the Berko situation to
enter into the records and Council's decision to possibly change
the rules and question our integrity and ability to make
decisions. I regretfully submit my resignation. (see records
for letter)
Zoe: The HPC Board has never had a meeting with Council.
Roxanne: Ron Mitchell is working with the different Boards
and the Planning office to try and work all the concerns out.
Charlie: If in fact we do stay as a body member I want to
suggest that we hold our meetings in the evening and have a 1/2
hr. before in private to discuss and refine issues we are
concerned about.
Bill: Roxanne will you find out what our by-laws are etc.
Joe: On Tuesday I teach a class and couldn't meet.
MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW WHEELER OPERA HOUSE AWNING/BANNERS
Roxanne: The applicant wishes to replace the existing awning
material in exactly the same fabric that is there and the same
color. They are about 5 years, old. The banners are another
issue. King Woodward went before City Council and they
HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
recommended that he go to the Board of Adjustments: The banners
are over sized and they want the banners to stay up the whole
year of the 100th year and they encroach into the right-of-way.
There will be three banners on the south side and three on the
east side and they will have a centennial logo and attached to
the building by brackets which will be attached into the mortar.
All the work on the Wheeler has been previously approved through
the State Historical Society. The banner size may need to be a
little bit smaller as there is a 50 sq. ft. maximum per banner.
The banners are projected to be 65 sq. ft. They are 20 ft. long
by 3 1/2 ft. wide. They are a mesh fabric with a logo and I
find that they enhance the Wheeler in a festive way and I
recommend that HPC grant minor development approval for both the
awning replacement and the banner and bracket installation
provided that the applicant receive the necessary approval from
City Council and the Board of Adjustment.
King Woodward: The bracket is large and will be painted the
same color as the building and will be taken down at the end of
the 100th. If someone else wanted to use them they would have to
go through the same procedure.
Bill: I'm in favor of the proposal and the building is a grand
old building and should be celebrated.
King Woodward: The whole program for the year is festive.
Joe: Will the banners just advertise the Wheeler and not the
performers.
them. The
windows as
King: Just for the Wheeler with the logo on
advertising for the performers will just be in the
usual.
Joe: Will the colors be the same on each banner.
King: The colors will be all different and will compliment the
building i.g. light blues and yellows.
Bill: I will entertain a motion as recommended by the Planning
Office to grant minor development approval for both the awning
replacement and the banner and bracket installation of the
Wheeler Opera House provided that the applicant receive the
necessary approvals from City Council for the banners.
MO~ION: Joe: I so move. Charlie second.
Charles: Should we require a sample or something as to what the
banners will look like on the building because we require that of
all our other applicants.
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HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
King: On Oct. 10th when I go back to Council they want to see a
banner so I have no problem.
AMENDED MOTION: Joe: I move to amend the motion accordingly.
Charlie second. All approved. Motion carries.
Charles: I suppose staff can receive the banner and give us a
report and sign off.
King: Do you want the whole model.
Charlie: Just a sketch.
Charles: You could do a xerox of the Wheeler and sketch in
where the banners go so that there is something on record.
King: We will need that drawing for the Board of Adjustment.
Joe: The reason I am in favor of this is because it is the
centennial for the Wheeler and I wouldn't anticipate this
becoming some precedent for putting up banners on the Wheeler for
any other particular reason.
King: This is very costly around $5,000.
MINOR DEVELOPMENT-FOOTLOOSE - 210 S. MILL ST.
Roxanne: The applicant is requesting approval for the
installation of three windows in a non-bearing wall. We find
that the proposed remodeling activity will provide a relief to
the solid brick wall and it will allow light to penetrate into
the semi-enclosed stairway and into the storefront windows of the
business. Although the structure is not historic it is located
right across from the Wheeler Opera House. We find that the
proposed activity is compatible with the building and its
neighboring historic structures. The windows will match exactly
what exists right now. They are anodized metal with a smaller
lower pane and they step up beginning at 40 inches above grade
and ending 80 inches above grade. The top windows align almost
twelve feet above grade and they are approximately 3 1/2 ft. in
width. Although the stair step window pattern is not used
anywhere else in the building we find it to be functional because
of the stairs and not objectional. One alternative would be to
align the windows in a perfectly horizontal fashion, however, we
are not recommending that but that might be something you want to
consider. We recommend that HPC grant minor development approval
requiring that the new windows exactly match those that currently
exist throughout the remainder of the building.
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HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
Steve DeGouveia, owner: The reason for the stair stepping was
because of the stairs inside. It is to gain some eye level
advantage as people are walking and to open up the stairway.
Even with lighting it is a dark stairwell and I am hoping to open
I would use the exact same
where they used
would be a good
stairway and bring in light.
it up and break up the wall.
material.
Bill: This is the stair to Magnifico Liquors,
to be.
Charles: I looked at the site and thought it
addition as it would open up the
Joe: What color is the glass going to be.
Steve: It would be clear.
Charlie: Does it have to be a wired glass.
Steve: I hope the Bldg. Dept. does not require that as I want
clear glass. All the windows on the building are clear and open.
There is one wired glass window at the top facing the alley.
Charlie: I'm not real sure if it is our Board's position
granting you permission to make the windows actually an enclosed
showcase. I think it is something that I am not real comfortable
with.
Joe: Wouldn't that be P&Z or the Bldg. Dept.
Bill: Is the display just in the lower windows.
Steve: No, in the whole window.
Roxanne: That would be a question for Bill Drueding whether or
not he could expand his display space.
Charlie: I don't know if it is appropriate for us to deal with
it as it is somewhat like a form of advertising.
Charles: It isn't any different than a store front window. The
only question would be whether or not he is allowed the extra
space from a zoning point of view.
Charlie: It is not a store front window, it is a stairwell that
we are allowing him to light as a stairwell. Is it a window to a
stairwell or is it a showcase. It becomes a showcase within
that wall. Architecturally it is great and will serve his
business.
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HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
Steve: If there is a problem with the display case inside there
I would then ask just for approval of the windows on the outside
contingent and do the interior as a second. The primary is to
open up the stairway.
Joe: Assuming that
some point, is it
streetscape.
is going to be filled up with merchandise at
still historically compatible with the
Charles: That is a subjective area as it could be no different
than the windows in the fur shop or anything else, it is just the
type of window, the way it works. The intent and the effect of
the passers by is still about a store front window.
Joe: That is true but if you are changing something, does it
meet the standards which are spelled out here.
Bill: In meeting with the standards I am not opposed to opening
that up and I'm not opposed to it being used as a display if we
could see it more as a traditional store front that would be in
keeping with the other windows. If we did something in the brick
work that would give us more of a typical store front spacing and
relief.
Charles: So you would get
building.
Zoe: That whole slab of
excellent idea.
the continuity with the rest of the
wall is unfinished and that is an
Bill: You may have to remove the brick to get the lentil in.
Roxanne: I talked to Bill Drueding and the code as it is right
now doesn't address display windows.
Charlie: His first window at 40 inches is inviting being lower.
Bill: I still am trying to leave that.
Charles: If you leveled the window at the 40 inch height and
have it be a shelf and step down below so it is cut out where you
need it to be but you would get the sense of indentation that
would carry it from the brick below through the mullions of the
glass.
Bill: I would be more in favor of that.
Steve: The windows will still be where they are and we would do
some brick relief.
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HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
Charles: If we don't get a clarification we can make a motion
for the window part at this point.
Bill: It is important to maintain the rectangular element.
Bill Drueding: If I make a reading right now I would call it a
sign. 'A display window is a window usually inside a house and is
not really addressed in the code. If it is used as a window,
fine. If it is used to advertise then I am going to call it a
sign.
Charlie: What if he wants it as a light well to the stairs.
Bill: If that is the reason for it then it should not be used as
a display box.
Steve: If I am not able to put the display in there I would
still want to do the windows.
Bill: Before I entertain a motion does everybody feel that the
design as revised, as presented meets the standards as outlined
in our memo. Standard #1 the proposed development is compatible
in character with the designated historic structures located on
the parcel or on the development on adjacent parcel. Standard #2
that the proposed development reflects and is consistent with the
character of the neighborhood. Standard #3 that the proposed
development enhances and does not detract from the cultural value
of designated historic structure located on the parcel or
adjacent parcels. Standard #4 that the proposed development
enhances and does not diminish or detract from the architectural
integrity of the designated historic structure of part thereof.
MOTION: Charles: I'll make a motion to approve the minor
development approval for the application for 210 S. Mill St.,
requiring that the new windows exactly match those that currently
exist throughout the remainder of the building in material and
provide a matching brick section below the window that has a one
inch indentation. The display aspect would be contingent upon
the approval from the Planning Office and Zoning official. Zoe
second the motion. All approved. Motion carries.
Bill: If you would amend the sketch and file it with Staff I
would feel comfortable as long as it matches the adjacent
windows.
Roxanne: So we will wait to stamp any approved plans once they
are revised.
Meeting adjourned 4:00 p.m.
HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
WORKSESSION
Roxanne: Leslie Holst presented a petition with 700 names to
Council and the Mayor made a motion and it was passed unanimously
to refer the petition to the City Attorney and have the attorney
report back to Council no later than Oct. 10th on his findings.
Roxanne: The second motion made was to require that any member
of a design community appointed to HPC agree not to represent any
application before the HPC during his or her term. Direction was
given to Ron Mitchell to coordinate information between the other
boards.
Roxanne: The third motion made by Council was to direct the
Planning Office that within 60 days to bring back incentives:
water taps, parking, housing possibilities and a west end
neighborhood overlay. PDR's as opposed to TDR's as being a way
that we could identify some areas and a way to protect them.
Alan: The problem is zoning. CC is the zone district for
downtown but CC is not a zone district if the objective of the
community is not to have houses or commercial buildings added on
to or not to have them moved. The only reason we got into this
problem is a owner buys a piece of property has a right to see a
developed potential on the property, has no other choice to say
addition or replacement of the building and then the HPC was
faced with the decision that an addition wasn't appropriate
therefore moving it is appropriate. The only answer to a
problem like that is you have to compensate the owner for the
development rights that they have coming to them on a piece of
property. I feel TDR's will probably never work because there is
no where to send the stuff too. Lets use Berko as an example:
If you are going to pick up Berko that had about 5,000 sq. feet
build out potential and move it somewhere else where is it going
to go, where is the community willing to see an addition 5,000
sq. ft. above what is already allowed now.
Joe: That is the point Michael Herron brought out that you are
pushing the problem over to someone else.
Alan: Historic preservation is important and lets put our money
where our mouth is.
Charles: It's not so much that a developer or an existing owner
of a property wants us to pay them anything so I don't think it
costs the city a cent. The city can free those properties from
the amount of exactions that are asked of the property to bear in
development or in not development. It doesn't cost anything to
not have to have employee housing, not pay a park dedication
free, not pay parking. The City doesn't loose anything by not
HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
asking that particular parcel to pay for it and in return, only
do that in return for a minor development.
Alan: I would agree if I thought that the problem was we had a
proposed compatible development that couldn't be successfully
accommodated because of its costs. I don't think that is the
problem. I don't think the people want the buildings added on
to. If the problem is the exactions are too high, last year we
faced the Elli's problem partly the facade issue but I don't
think that was the issue. The issue was that you had 9,000 sq.
ft. added onto the building and there was no parking, no housing,
no impact mitigation. Everyone said change the code so we
changed the code. The Berko bldg. faces the new code can't
handle it and now everybody wants to drop the exactions and
someone will come in with a building that they want to add on to
and people will be back where they were with Elli's.
Joe: What could you pay the guy to take out 3,000 sq. ft. of
commercial space there. You don't have enough City exactions to
provide incentives to do something compatibe to 1000 or 1,500 sq.
ft.
Zoe: The answer is not just incentives. When people walk
through town they are beginning to feel the lack of their fiber,
charm, character etc. of the little victorian houses. If these
houses could be turned back into residences and only be allowed
to add so much square feet which would lower the price of these
house. I am sure there are a lot of professional businesses in
town that would invest in these houses and live in them. People
don't want to see 5,000 sq. ft. added onto a building.
Alan: You are close to what we are thinking. We need to
identify the sites that are important enough to the community
that you want to limit how much addition that is allowed. Step
two would be to look at the sites individually for example the
Berko-it has 700 ft. if someone put a total of 1,500 feet on this
property that would allow an economic use of the property. We
will give them some build out potential. The remaining 4,500
they won't loose that, we will not down zone the property. We
need some economic mechanism either a property tax increase or a
sales tax increase, some dollars that are in the public sector
that compensates the owner. This would be a technique for the
ones that you want to limit the addition on.
Zoe: Then we would have the quaint little businesses and people
living in the little houses. There needs to be a reputable
realestate person on this board or a realestate appraiser.
Bill: It is a good incentive but there is no guarantee that
they will take advantage of it.
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HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
Alan: I would make it mandatory.
Bill: I don't think we can evaluate what the potential is on
each individual site that we identify because architecturally you
might find that number not compatible and you may need 500 sq.
ft. more to make it more compatible. You need to set it up in
the process that we review each one that comes in and then we
bargain.
Alan: I think your idea is reasonable.
Bill: A developer will let the building sit there and let the
building deteriorate for five years and then he will come back to
us and the building will get the 6,000 sq ft. because the value
is there. He will wait us out and we won't save the buildings.
Alan: We have a deterioration ordinance.
Roxanne: Only for demolition and nothing for maintenance.
Alan: I know the transfer of development rights is about the
most successful preservation technique in the country. We have
3/4 of a penny left in our sales tax and possibly it should go to
housing and the arts. I think 1/4 should go to housing, 1/4 to
arts and 1/4 to preservation. I think the City should not be the
one purchasing development rights because we sell or develop
things. If you put it in a trust it will never be touched.
Charlie: Is there a transfer that works for open space,
something that legally works to take a building and keep it in
its existing situation, restore it and trade the developer for a
parcel that is contiguous to a park or something like the Koch
lumber and he gets the duplex building site.
Alan: If there were somewhere where you could sell what he
could develop to put it somewhere else, to transfer it.
Joe: There are no receiving areas.
Charles: What about annexing part of the county to the city to
be part of the TDR development.
Alan: We had talked but the commissioners would fight it.
Bill: The incentives did work on Elli's.
Roxanne: I need some feedback regarding the conflict issue in
Augie's letter.
HPC.MINUTES.September 27, 1988
Bill: If they propose it as planned I would have to resign. I
can be objective and not allow conflicts to effect my judgment
when other people from the board make their presentations.
Zoe: I think architects on this board are essential and I would
not be as qualified without their feedback and guidance.
Charles: There were three projects that I brought to HPC and it
is unfair for Council to listen to issues without checking it out
with us first.
Zoe: Council and HPC should be working for the same end and
right now there is a conflict between the two.
Alan: If a whole new board comes on you might as well take this
work effort and throw it out the window. We need people on the
board who understand the issues.
Charles: If council members have anything at all that is
related to their business on the agenda they can't vote
objectively without affecting their business somehow.
Zoe: We have not been recognized by Council.
Charlie: I feel Council is inappropriate in trying to shake out
the board for its member basis. In a small town you can't not
expect this to happen. The calling out of the board members is
not acceptable. Council selected these people.
Joe: I feel this is primarily a political situation, a lot of
people acting based upon the lack of information. A lot of the
issues about architects on the board was initiated by Scott
McDonald.
Alan: People work together outside their board relationships
all the time.
Zoe: City Council is accusing us of having no integrity.
meeting adjourned 5:00
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