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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.hpc.19871124 HISTORIC PRESERVATION CO~ITTBE Minutes Regular Meeting City Council Chambers, City Hall November 24, 1987 2:30 p.m. Chairman Bill Poss called the meeting to order at 2:45 p.m. Answering roll call were Georgeann Waggaman, Augie Reno, Charles Knight and Bill Poss. Patricia and Nick. Charles Cunniffe and Excused were Zoe, Charles Cunniffe presented copies of an article regarding facades to all the members for their information. Steve: The incentives ordinance is in the packet as approved so that you understand how all of those work. The December meetings are scheduled for the days of the 8th and 22nd. After discussion the Committee approved having meetings on these days. Bill suggested the secretary call members to make sure there would be a quorum for these meetings because of the holiday. At the work session of November 19, City Council looked at the guidelines and set a public hearing on December 14 to consider them formally. There are some changes that have to be made. Some of them should come back before the Committee. That works out also for you to discuss this on December 8th to discuss the guidelines again before it goes to Council on December 14th. The next matter on Elli's, City Council discussed it partly as an informational item on last night's regular agenda. They passed a motion that expressed their displeasure with the project. The motion may end up being more indicative of how they feel. The motion was prior to the certificate of occupancy being issued they should mitigate impacts, i.e. employee housing, cash in lieu or something of that sort. I think basically what is going to happen is that the City Attorney has been directed to investigate whether there were irregularities during the review process that might give City Council the opportunity to take another action such as to appeal an action from this Committee or appeal designation or something and that would be on December 14th. I believe that the City Attorney will basically orchestrate a discussion on how the project had occurred. HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 FIRE--STATiG~ OFFI~E-~O~CEPT~AI~ RL~IEW (PUBLI~ HEARI~) Bob Walker, architect: This is an addition that the Fire Protection District first proposed in 1982 when the Thrift Shop was first proposed to be built. We have gone through kind of a go-around because apparently even though this little section here is between the old Little Cliff's building and the existing fire station--even though it was zoned as an SPA public use overlay to accommodate the Thrift Shop there was never really anything that anybody can find in any of the records that actually allow this office addition to be put in although when the applications were made for SPA for the Thrift Shop there were included in all of those packages an existing building permit too and a set of drawings that shows this office structure although in a slightlY different form but apparently nothing was really carried forward on it. The Fire Department assumed that it was OK to go ahead and do it. This was an wrong assumption since nothing had been recovered as far as that went. What was originally proposed was that there would be 2 offices and a bathroom to be put in between these 2 buildings. This building was supposedly going to be designed so that it could take a second floor as was the Thrift Shop. When I started working on it I took what we did was the Fire Department decided that they did not need a second story to begin with. All they wanted to do was to have this office structure. And the office is for the Fire Chief, the secretary and the Fire Marshal. The Fire Marshal has just been recently hired. Right now his offices are here in City Hall. The idea was that the Fire District would build this structure in between the existing fire barn and the Thrift Shop. They would delete the second floor. Because an odd situation between these 2 buildings we decided we did not need the space to begin with and in order to keep the cost down on the building we would go ahead and just go on with the single story structure. The original SPA overlay outlined certain requirements for open space, building distance setbacks and so forth and we are in compliance with those but the most important appears to be the open space. When this was made into an SPA overlay that this little park would remain. We conformed to that right down to the square inch. The way it stands right now we are submitting this plan which is a single story 723 sq. ft. office structure that would be put in between the two buildings and it would be made exactly the same HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 materials as the Thrift Shop. My contention is that because of siting it towards the rear of the lot and because of the proxim- ity of these two buildings which really have no great historic character that it would make more sense to me from a design standpoint to continue what had been done here and taken on back around and fill in the space. The other thing that occurred to me when I was writing up the justification for all this was that even though the buildings on either side of this are brick and are more in conformance with in fact the Brand Building all the buildings around are brick. It just seemed that putting a brick facade in between these two particular buildings wouldn't make much sense. I could see where making a case for putting a brick facade on this entire project but that is beyond the budget of the Fire Department at this time. My contention was that given what was here in its immed- iate neighbors that this facade would make sense just to be made out of the same material and try to maintain the same lines, the same window lines and use the same window detailing. The only thing I changed in this is instead of using the store front type of window detailing I used openable windows in the office building. The way the park was situated before there was a narrow alleyway with a beat up old fence in the back and to my way of thinking it was just a sort of short cut from Hopkins back to the alley. And also when you looked down here all you saw was the back of the Oasis Station. I am making the justification since we did site the building back on the lot it really becomes more like a little park rather than just a kind of a slot down between the two buildings. One other change that we did make from the original drawings was that originally the facade of the building came about to here and we kept the back building line the same because we have to accommodate parking spaces but we moved it out slightly so that the offices could be a little bit bigger. The only thing that did was it took a little bit more square footage off the park but it still remains within the guidelines for the SPA. As far as the planting and the street furniture--the benches and so forth, we have kept those. What happened was there were a couple of trees that we removed and they are to be taken to Rubey Park or the golf course and then we saved all the rest of the trees and just replanted them. They are in their spaces now. Georgeann: I would like to comment that I was on the HPC at the time the Thrift Shop came before us and there was a lot of discussion about that park and people were concerned about even putting the Thrift Shop in there. It was decided to be done but HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 the park is critical and makes a nice atmosphere on that block especially as it might be built up across the street. I like what you have done because the park really those last few feet of the park don't add to the park much. I would like to see as much of the park as possible and while I think your design makes sense, I am concerned about having that eyebrow coming out of the front door. I know it makes sense for the operable windows and the door to have some rain protection but it does move that space an extra 4 feet forward visually. Maybe that is a little too much. Bob: We moved the building up 5 or 6 feet from the and with the eyebrow we are out--when I figured the allowed myself the figure of what is underneath the original plan park space I overhang. Steve: That is not open space. sky. Open Space has to be open to the Bob: In that case I will have to come back. Steve: In evaluating the proposal the elements that I think are important for compatibility are setback, alignment and rhythm of the facade detail and massing. Now in our general guidelines that we are reviewing at this time the idea is to have a facade along the street. This is quite a different concept and I think that there are good reasons for the proposed setbacks because the store front open space is retained. The alignment rhythm of the facade details essentially what this design encompasses is to use the architectural elements of the concrete block and the window spacing as the Thrift Shop has it. There is no store front. The massing is basically the same as the Thrift Shop. I think that those are the primary elements. It is kind of an interesting situation because what I think you have is a small and fairly dissimilar structure amongst two other dissimilar structures within the historic district. I wondered if there were some other way to bring the entire fire station/- Thrift Shop into better visual harmony and also given that this is an entire mixed up block is there some way that what they are proposing to be able to do that. And I have to answer that in my opinion there is not that opportunity. This is a fairly unique situation and only through major redevelopment of the entire property would they be able to address that. The other concern that I would point out are the landscaping of the park in order to make it a viable situation. I think that the applicant has addressed that and it still will remain a park like setting. In fact it may be enhanced in that respect. HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 In reference to the materials you have got a situation here where the guidelines are encouraging brick and stone and wood in some situations not concrete block but here we have a situation between 2 concrete block buildings. I wonder if a pink or red material might somehow be somewhat of a relief from the cold gray Thrift Shop. Maybe just the coloration of the material would help some. More wood trim might soften it and bring it better into the character of the core. It would be nice if the struct- ure could be softened to some extent. The other aspects are the setbacks of the suggest that the setback not be more than 5 had been proposed. structure. I would ft. forward from what The height of the structure is another aspect. It wouldn't bother me if the height were basically at the top of the one story and the facade or the parapet not come up all the way to the Thrift Shop but I think that is up to the designer. I don't think that is a critical point. I would recommend conceptual approval with some concern for the matters I addressed. Bill: Any comments from the public? No comments. Bill: I'll close the public hearing. Charles: The only thing I wonder about is having the material blend with the Thrift Shop rather than the Fire Station. This is a Fire Station addition, not a Thrift Shop addition. Maybe it could be something like a different color stone or block or something so it is a Fire Station addition instead of a Thrift Shop addition. Other than that the way it is designed is all right. I would be more comfortable with something that would blend with the Fire Station. Augie: Those are my exact comments basically. I visualize somebody walking down and it does seem more like an addition to the Thrift Shop than the Fire Station. I am not so sure that you would want to go with regular concrete blocks so maybe color is the answer. Bill: My comments are almost exactly the same and I could go either way. It is not a public building where people go into the Fire Department. I like that it puts a backdrop to the park and it will probably be a more pleasant park. Bob: I did it intentionally towards the Thrift Shop because it is a nicer looking building and the Fire Barn is just that red painted block. I did consider brick or even sandstone but 5 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 somehow introducing that other thing it just didn't make any sense. Charles : Maybe the way suggested to make it not the same red as the Fire Station and not the same gray as the Thrift Shop but something in between the two. The elements are all from the Thrift Shop and maybe something colorful from the Fire Department could blend into it. Georgeann: I would like to go along with the guys on that. I think that another reason for liking it a different color is now we start to get the Thrift Shop building looking rather monolith- ic and this would separate them into separate small structures. Bob: Dotsero Co. makes up a pretty wide range of colors that I might be able to work with. If I knock this facade back to 3 feet instead of 4 feet and I am back within my square footage on the park would that be reasonable? The main reason that I have this is to get this thing covered to protection as you go inside of the building but also to keep this line. The overhang itself, if that is too large and encroach on the park space, I could take that back. Georgeann: What materials do you have in mind for that? I am thinking also that if that is more of the gray stone maybe have that in a wood or something which would soften it. Bob: It is wood. It is in gray but I could change the color on that. Georgeann: If it were pushed back a little bit and softened it might become even quieter back there. It is not as if you need any attention to that building. Bill: I think that since it is a conceptual Bob has a feeling as to the way we are looking at it. MO'lION: Charles: I move to approve the conceptual approval for the addition to the Fire Station taking into consideration the open space requirements and the consideration of different coloration of the building. Georgeann seconded the motion. All in favor. Motion carries. Fran Davies, representative: I have come to the Board to apply to repair and paint the exterior woodwork and windows of the Aspen Historical Society. When I called a contractor in to see 6 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 the state of affairs he pointed out that the windows were in extremely bad condition and the woodwork was in need of repair and he thought that we ought to get in touch with Pella regarding the windows and get an idea from them of what they would recom- mend. One of the things that the Board wanted to have done was to repair and to prevent leaks and also to try to cut down on our heating bill which are astronomical. We called Charles Cunniffe and Associates to help us to see how we should approach this problem. We also called in the Pella Window Company to see what the best decision would be to repair the windows. After these consultations the recommendation was brought up that we should replace the windows and the frames. To replace them as they are--single pane glass, double hung wooden frames with a wood clad frame and wood clad windows and that way we would get a better seal on the windows and cut down on our maintenance costs and we would also increase our insulation because behind the window--we are also going to use a pin on low E ultra violet protecting storm window and put that on the interior of the window so that from the outside of the house it would be back to its more original look instead of the storm windows which are currently used. We felt that this is historically correct. We couldn't change the window in any way. As far as the woodwork goes we determined that the woodwork is really beyond repair in some places. And what we have thought we would do there is to replace what is rotting out with new wood and to bring it up to paint standard and then to be painted again. Georgeann: You are not going to change any of these pieces of wood. Fran: No. What we thought we would do was to use those as models or patterns if we needed to redo any of the gingerbread fretwork. Architect: There is some dry rot in the molding and cases we would want to paint it. The paint right now right off. in certain is coming Steve: Are you speaking of the molding in the photograph? Architect: Yes. Steve: So you would be replacing this entire area here. 7 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Architect: As needed and the front appears to be in better shape. Fran: I brought an original photograph from early 1900 and it is the only record that we have at the museum. Steve: So the porch was reconstructed. Fran: Our heating bills for last March and February were $400 and $300 and we cannot afford to stay there. Charles K: I have a question on the materials. It is a wood window? Fran: Yes it is a glad window that we are suggesting. Georgeann: What is wood clad? Architect: It is a vinyl glad on the outside and Pella suggested that simply on the basis of placing the windows as is or duplica- te them in wood which would run more money in terms of down the line if you are going to replace the windows again--whatever--and this is not exactly a house that has and abundance of financial backing behind it. That would be the best in terms of the longevity of repair. Georgeann: You are telling me then that it has that vinyl looking finish which you don't have to paint--just like the Jerome. Charlie: It is prepainted. Fran: Pella has recommended the colors that have been used on the Jerome. Charlie: Is there a surface you can paint over? Is it supposed to last the life of the window? Architect: It is the same window that is used in the Jerome. Fran: This house was built by the same man who built the Hotel Jerome and as close as we can tell, around the same period of time. Georgeann: I think it is a reasonable color choice on your part historically. Charlie: The low E glass: What does it look like? Does it have a reflective cast and a mirrored finish on it? 8 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Architect: It does not have a mirrored finish to it. It is also on the interior windows and the exterior of the building with the panes--a single pane on the exterior of the building will not be reflected. That was a big point that was brought up. What it will do on the inside--the storm panel is diffuse the light from fading stuff on the inside. Bill: Some of the new glass that is low E heat mirror has been approved by the National Trust and they do have some reflective quality but they are acceptable. I think this is a good solution. It doesn't affect the interior as much does it? Fran: No. Architect: We will be able to replace the windows from the outside keeping the interior woodwork. This was a concern as to how much we would have to alter the inside. And this way the window just can be removed. Charles K: How are they clad on the inside? The same? Are they vinyl clad there or are they wood finish. Architect: are put in. the inside. It would butt up to a wood finish the way the windows The wood casing on the windows actually overlaps on Charles K: What about the window itself? Charles K: The mullion is both clad front and back? Architect: No--wood on the inside, and clad on the outside. The storm windows that were on the outside of the building were not added until 1967. Steve: The house is on the National Register and it is an excellent structure. This is a proposal to change the windows and the new guidelines state "Repair if possible, replace as close as you can if replacement is the only solution". I use the preservation brief to organize some of the concerns about repair or replacement of historic wooden windows. They are asking us to go through a sort of analysis to figure out if the windows are original and is it an example of fine or exceptional craftsman- ship and to make some evaluations on that. It appears that the windows are original. There are some original hardware on some of the windows but not all of them. The glass is also old and the wooden frames, sash appear to be original. I would say that it is an example of fine craftsman- ship maybe not exceptional. Just given the work was carefully 9 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 done. I would evaluate that the multi-paned windows are a major contribution to the historical appearance of the facade. It reflects the victorian period and it is possibly the more ornate type of window in Aspen. The concerns of whether it should be repaired or replaced is basically to look at the soundness of the windows. It sounds like Fran has gone through some analysis of that asking whether the operation is sound. The wood has been tested to see whether that fungi is a problem. As I looked at them I was not convinced because I had not gone through all that analysis. I am not an expert as to whether they are really beyond repair. What I want to encourage is that if they could be repaired, I think they should be and I think that is the highest priority for a struct- ure of the caliber of the Stallard House. From what I understand repair is usually labor intensive. It is relatively uncomplicated but it is costly because it does require a lot of painstaking work to do. I would suggest that that probably could be done and it would be the most appropriate treatment for the problems. Furthermore with regard to energy efficiency tight storm windows are probably going to save more energy than a single pane glass. With regard to the wood they have gone through some analysis and if they can't repair it by using epoxy and other methods and through a more careful way of stripping and repainting, then replacement is appropriate. Fran: We have explored the possibility of doing as you suggested. Doing that way would be three times the quote of $32,00. we could not afford that. We are going to preserve whatever we can. Steve: One possible approach is to leave some of the key windows as original as we had suggested and possibly use that front facade as the example as original. Then to do the others--the other would be to try to repair all the windows on a gradual basis. There are 31 windows? Fran: 44 all together and the dormer windows cannot be duplica- ted as they are. We are going to have to do something else with them. Augie: I agree with Steve about trying to repair but on the other hand being in a building where we did that to three windows, that was very costly and I am not so sure that it couldn't have been reproduced in a manner that would not have hurt. This was the Red Onion and I think that for 3 windows we spent $7,000 just to have them rebuilt which was ridiculous. So 10 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 I don't have any problem with that as long as the windows basically take on the same dimensions in proportion so that what you have got is what you are going to get in a new window. Georgeann: I am in between the two opinions. Wasn't the Jerome also historic with historic designation and yet they put in new windows there. Steve: They certainly did and so did the Brand Building. Georgeann: I agree that it has to have the same proportions and shapes. My thought which might be a compromise would be perhaps the windows underneath the porch that are so close that people walk right by them and maybe get any feeling from them--those might be in less bad repair because they have always been under the porch at least the ones in the front. Those might be worth restoring because you could actually see the effect of the restoration. A window on the back wall up on the second floor, I don't see where if it was vinyl clad or whether it was restored would make much difference as long as the proportions were the same. Steve: Probably the bay windows are the most important but yet you say they are in the worst shape. Fran: They are in the worst shape. And then to repair those and there are two windows still on the front under the porch and then you would have two looking differently. It is my understanding that what we would put in would look exactly as the same as what is there now and that unless you were told you wouldn't know that they were a new window. Georgeann: Since there has been so much historic redevelopment, aren't the window companies getting more careful and doing a better job of making things match. Architect: They will if the architect impresses that issue and you have to be specific in what you tell them. Steve: Another concern is whether there would be some instant damage to the wooden frames around the windows through the removal process. I would certainly encourage that be done as carefully as possible. Architect: The representative from Pella was there. That was their saying that would be the easiest way to do it is the removal from the outside of the window. Other than having to take out windows that are built in there. A double hung does not work the same. But aside from that the idea is to preserve as much of the wood as is existing there. 11 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Charlie: What does that mean? Does a double hung window come pre-hung, in its own sash and own frame? Architect: It would come and fit in there. Those windows there come with a cord in them. Most of them don't work anymore. Having cords they were built on the job and a cord goes up and down inside. Obviously that is going to have to come out. That is part of the sash of the window. Charlie: Are you going to have to do all that from the outside? Architect: They will pull all that out from the outside. Charlie: Is that less expensive--the vinyl. maintenance? Or is it lower Architect: It is lower maintenance. The figures that we got are petty close to the expense of an all wood window. With wood window we would be painting them ever 2 or 3 years, especially on the west and south sides where they do get a lot of weather. The paint is literally chipping off the building. Charlie: Well I would suspect that the wood has deteriorated rather substantially. I would hope that that would be the first objective is that you are trying to replace damaged wood over saving your heat loss because I don't know that you are going to save that much heat loss. It probably is poorly insulated roof and sidewalls even though it is brick. It may not end up at all being a substantial savings. It concerns me and I would rather see them all wood I think as they would probably be original and hope that the thermal capacity would be capable of helping with the heat loss. Fran: I don't think I understand exactly what you meant. Charlie: Well, rather than having vinyl clad which I think would become very apparent, I personally would rather see them all wood Fran: What if the wood cannot be repaired? Charlie: Well, I think then they obviously need to be replaced. Bill: My comments are similar to almost everybody's. I would like to see, although these shapes of the individual parts of the window are fairly simple, my experience with Pella seems that their muntins are wider in proportion to what is existing and I would like to caution you to be a little careful of that. 12 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Fran: That is why we couldn't use a thermal pane in there. Bill: So their single pane would be smaller? Fran: Yes. Bill: I agree with Charlie Knight that I would prefer to see the wood replacement windows not that you would replace or restore these individually. I think it is a more purist restoration project in that regard but I find no way if we have already let it happen on the Jerome and the Brand Building and so I think it is really up to you as cost but it is such a good example of the architecture that I would like to see more purist restoration happen. Just for clarification, you did say that all the diamond patterns would be reproduced because there is quite a few different diamond patterns. Fran: They have told us they might not be able to reproduce because the way that that was made is not structurally sound any more. Architect: Those will probably have to stay and be worked on. Bill: They would stay. I would hate to see those replaced. Charlie: Which ones are those? Bill: Up in the gable. They are actually different diamond patterns. Georgeann: Being the Historical Museum of Aspen unfortunately puts you into a more box than anywhere else in that you should restore as closely as possible. Bill: Is there a grant program going to come into being that the City might be able to donate some money to this restoration? Steve: The historic designation does not. There is no local source that I know of. It is possible that there is a winteriz- ation fund that the State Energy Conservation program or some- thing of that sort. Fran: We have explored all kinds of things and we have not found one yet. Bill: If we would like to use this as a museum to restore it authentically, maybe we should help out with that. Georgeann: We could write a letter as a recommendation. 13 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Charlie: What is the extent of this initial plan to do the windows and I assume you plan to do all around the eaves on the facia that is rotten and what about the porch eaves, the lower ones. Fran: Only the places that need repair and then the whole structure will be repainted It is our 100th anniversary next year. The total project is $75,000. For just the windows themselves $32,000. $20,000 on the brick work. There are cracks that have to be replaced. Steve: Two suggestions. If you do make a motion requesting City Council to fund it you might consider what you think is the most preferable method of going about the windows whether it is wood or something else. Then maybe cost is not so much of an issue. If you think the City should participate to help defray some of the cost. While I think this is a really great presentation, we have still not seen anything from Pella. I would suggest that if you are going to make recommendation to approve that a condition be that some kind of further documentation on exactly what Pella is going to do--just to see whether we can trouble shoot what the muntins are going to be. This to be submitted to the Planning Office for us to approve and review. Charlie: Is this to start in the spring or are you trying to do something for the winter? Fran: We have the bids but we don't have the plans to start placing orders till we have cash. We have applied for a grant to help cover some of the cost but we have to raise funds. We are planning a big anniversary party next summer. It would be really nice to have it done by then. But right now we don't have anything on order and we have to wait for funds. MO~ION: Georgeann: I make a motion to accept as presented the restoration of the wood trim and moldings on the Stallard House and replacement where needed to follow the original patterns. Bill: It is my understanding that the windows are to be repaired where possible. Augie seconded the motion. Ail in favored. Motion carries. MO~ION: Georgeann: Regarding the replacement of the windows in the Stallard House, I move to accept their replacement with Pella windows after Pella has submitted detailed drawings to be sure the sizes and shapes are exact recommending that the windows be 14 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 wood clad but vinyl clad is also acceptable if the Historical Society so chooses. Augie: Instead of saying wood clad just say wood window. Augie second the motion. Charlie: I'm not clear on that. Is that a wood window or a wood window with a vinyl clad on the window. Steve: The motion read to move to approve replacement with a pella window after pella has submitted detailed drawings to assure that those windows are exactly the same. Recommending a wood window but accepting vinyl clad windows if the Historical Society so chooses. Metal clad is not acceptable. Steve: Is it clear that this is the 31 windows that we are talking about. With regard to the detailed drawings from Pella, would that be submitted to the Planning Office for us to check? Georgeann: I would say so. Augie seconded the motion with all in favor except Charlie Knight. Charlie: I feel the windows should be wood and deal with a little more maintenance. You are going to deal with maintenance on the rest of the house and I know that they deteriorate a little and require more maintenance but I think that the look of that house you will appreciate that over the course of the years to have it as detailed in that respect as original as possible. Architect: It is going to end up being a replica of the window that is in there whether it is clad or wood. Georgeann: If City Council is willing to give $2,000 to any of these little buildings that seek historic designation--do you get money from the City anyhow every year? Fran: We do. They do provide us with yard maintenance and then something toward the salary of the archives. We got $9,000 this year. Georgeann: But I wonder if it might be tempting to ask City Council if they would make a contribution for a more appropriate restoration of the Stallard House. We can only recommend but that would be only on the consideration that it would be wood. MOTION: Charlie: I make a motion that we write to City Council requesting some funds be granted to the Stallard House for this 15 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 portion of the $75,000 restoration and that the 100th celebration of the house could be achieved by the end of the summer. Bill: I don't know if I can make a motion or whether I would recommend you to check the profile that the vinyl does in fact look like the wood. Steve: You are speaking about checking specifications of the Pella window. Fran: I would go for the wood if we can get some money from the City. Bill: That would affect that last motion that was just passed. Do we want to change that? Georgeann: That just gives them the option. Steve: You could certainly amend that motion couldn't you? Georgeann: I would be inclined to say if all the other buildings that have historic designation, we have allowed to have vinyl clad that it is unfair prejudice that the Stallard House if we don't allow them to have vinyl clad. We might now try and tempt them to try and not have vinyl or strongly recommend that they don't have vinyl clad but I don't think we can not allow them. Steve: I think it is up to you if you value this structure any more than any of the other structures. But if you feel that it is a fair decision in that regard for all structures-- Georgeann: That is the way I would feel and I would only offer asking the City Council to help them if they would go with the wood because they will have additional maintenance. The City also already does provide some money to them. We are just trying to offset some of their additional maintenance down the road. Bill: I'll entertain a motion to that. Charlie: I would like to remove my motion. MOTIOn: Augie: I move that HPC authorizes the chairman, Bill Poss, to send a letter to City Council recommending that if the Aspen Historical Society uses wooden windows that the City Council help fund. Actually before I say this there is no additional cost to wood windows except for maintenance, right? It is in the rebuilding where the cost is. So I have a problem with that. It doesn't cost them any more for wooden window. 16 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Georgeann: But it does down the road. out a little bit. So this just helps them Charlie: You don't know that down the road. You don't know in 20 years that the vinyl is going to peal off these windows and then they have to be taken apart and rebuilt. Georgeann: But don't you sue Pella at that point because they promised a lifetime guarantee? Steve: That is my point. Why can't we just repair them. I just think it is just a real loss. I feel we should just keep those windows if we can. MO~ION: Augie: I make a motion that we authorize Bill to send a letter to City Council recommending that if the Aspen Historic- al Society rebuilds the existing windows that City Council help fund that particular process. Georgeann seconded the motion. Charlie: I'm not sure on this. Is the only way that we are recommending that City Council give them some funds for this project is if the rebuild now, is that right? Georgeann: Yes. I don't mind agreeing to that one but on other hand I don't really think that addresses the problem unless because I am not sure that if it costs that much more, I am not sure that the Historical Society is willing to do that and I am not sure that City Council is going to give them enough money to make it worth their doing that and I am more concerned that they may decide that is too impossible, we will never get it done by the 100th birthday and then they might go ahead and do vinyl clad windows because they want to think they are going to have less maintenance and them we have lost the possibility of wood windows at all. Charlie: Then they are not going to get the thermal capacity they are asking for which I do think is fairly valid. Georgeann: Yes, you mean because they restore the old ones? Charlie: Yes, because we have spent a lot of money restoring them and then in 20 hears those will need replacing. And if we replace them with wood windows in 100 years they will need replacing and they will be done right once and they will require a little more paint but at least they would be like the original. Georgeann: So I think Augie's motion is a nice one I don't think it is a relevant one. 17 HPC Minutes November 24, 1987 Charles: As a member of the public why not just recommend that City Council help fund the project unrelated to whether or not it is going to replace with wooden windows. It is a City project and it needs help whether they replace it with wood windows or not should not really be whether or not they get help. Charlie: It is our responsibility to direct whoever is bringing this historical project. It has no bearing on how we tie their hands. We should give them the direction they are asking for in one concise way or another. Vinyl clad, metal, whatever we want to do . But I think that is a valid recommendation. To try to get the City to help with this because it is exactly one of the things that we are trying to promote is this restoration of buildings and here is a pure uneconomic application of historic restoration and I think it is our opportunity to direct them as purely as possible and try to get the community involved as purely as possible which would mean getting the City Council to help. Charles: It is also tending to replace what windows they have to and doing it in a manner that looks authentic. Bill: Ail in favor of the motion that is on the floor? Everyone was opposed. Motion dies. MOTION: Augie: I make a motion that Bill Poss send a letter recommending to the City Council that they help fund the restora- tion project of the Aspen Historical Society is undertaking for the renovation of the windows and the trim and hopefully in a manner that that can be achieved by the end of next summer. Fran: Our birthday party will be the end of July. Charlie seconded the motion. Ail in favor. Motion carries. Meeting was adjourned. Time was 4:25 pm. Janice M. Carney, City Deputy Clerk