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ASPEN PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
August 1, 1995, Tuesday
4:00 - 6:00 P.M.
2nd Floor Meeting Room
City Hall
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I. COMMENTS
commissioners
Planning Staff
Public
II. WORK SESSION
A. Affordable Housing/Resident Occupied Discussion with
County P&Z, Leslie Lamont
II 1. ADJOURN
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MEMORANDUM
TO: Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission
Pitkin County Planning and Zoning Commission
FROM: Cindy Houben, Director of Long Range Planning
Leslie Lamont, Deputy Director
DATE: August 1,1995
RE: Review of the proposed Affordable Housing Zone District
and Resident Occupied (R.O.)amendments to the land Use
Code; Continued Public Hearing
BACKGROUND: This memo supplements the June 20th memo regarding AH
and R.O. We discuss this subject jointly in an effort to
appropriately implement the AACP. Because the-AH and RO subjects
have taken so long to route back to the P and Z level,we will
attempt to refresh your memories and make you familiar with the
revisions recommended by the BOCC/CC.
The GMQS .revisions approved in January triggered the need to revise
other related sections of the City and County Land Use Codes
including the Affordable Housing Zone District.
Briefly, the logic behind the need to revise the AH regulations was
a result of the dramatic amendments to the GMQS allocation and
review process which allows- less free market residential
development and more Affordable Housing development. The AACP
drove the GMQS amendments which reflect the goals to house 600 of
the work force in the metro area, to restore the local community
by providing housing levels close to what was present in 1987.
Given these revisions the AH zone district becomes the primary
avenue for residential development in the metro area. Both the City
and the County are committed to coordinating these districts in an
effort to achieve the goals of the jointly approved AACP and to
ensure that all elements of development ( such as transportation) are
considered when reviewing AH projects.
You will recall that we have worked closely with the Housing
Authority to develop the revisions to the AH zone district. The
Housing Authority has provided invaluable information regarding
issues such as what percentage of affordable housing Vs. free
market housing yields a successful project for both the Community
and the developer. We also, spent many meetings discussing the
FAR's,minimum lot sizes.density and minimum standards to reflect
the goals of the AACP.
In conjunction with these discussions we developed the R.O. program
to allow residents who do not otherwise fit into the affordable
Housing guidelines to purchase a home and remain in the community.
The specifics of this broader concept of affordable housing were
debated at the elected official level and their recommendations are
included on page 7 of the June 20th memo. The concept of category
5 was also debated . In light of the AH recommendations the Housing
Authority no longer recommends approval of category 5 deed
restrictions.
SUMMARY
All of the revisions noted above have predictably created new spin-
off issues for us to consider when adopting revisions toAH.
The following summary highlights the proposed AH revisions and
spin-off issues we must consider. The detailed review of each issue
is in the June 20th memorandum(Attached).
The Issues that we wish to resolve with the Joint Commissions today
include:
1. A recommendation of approval for the proposed new AH zone
districts for the City and the County. Discussion is anticipated
relative to proposed changes in FAR , the use of the PUD concept
and the proposed clarification and revision to the unit and bedroom
count requirements of the AH zone district.
2. A recommendation to eliminate Category 5;
3. A recommendation of approval for the proposed/ revised RO
program;
4. Transfer of AH Development Rights onto non contiguous parcels;
S. Occupancy by developers choice
6. Transfers in Rural/ Remote Zone
The following charts will be brought to the meeting in order to
more fully compare the existing and proposed changes to the AH zone
district:
1. Current FAR Sliding Scale;
2. Proposed new method of calculating FAR;
RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends that the joint P&Z's recommend
approval of the proposed new and revised AH zone
districts;elimination of Category 5;approval of the proposed RO
program;and a recommendation to either revise or eliminate the
developers choice option.
Staff defers its recommendation on #4 and #6 above until further
information can be provided at the meeting.
K,
Examples of Project Density on Recent AH Projects
t-ro I perty Lot Units Bedrooms Sq. Ft FAR
Sq Ft -Lot
Area
Per BR
West Hopkins 12,000 11 21 11,000 1 91.7%
571
Three buildings surrounding a small courtyard.
Setback variances to move building closer to street and alley
and increase interior courtyard
Best way to see this is wityh a site visit
East Hopkins* 91000 4 -12 81526 94.7%
750
One building, a fourplex, similar to Elk Run Fourplex
Small (postage stamp) yards
See Model or Site Visit
Juan Street 12,000 6 17 99043 75.4%
706
Four structures, two detached units and two duplex stuctures
This is really a multi —family development with one and two units structures
its density is lower than most MF projects, but higher than most
single family or duplex projects.
Site visit or model is the best way to see this.
Kraut 151000 27 27 161500 110.0%
556
This downtown core project is at maximum desity, but consistent with
.
neighboring structures.
Site model is best way to see this
Cohousing 232585 21 39 24,561 104.1% 605
This development is somewhat similar to Juan Street -or Willimas Woods —
clusters of small buildings around open space. The density is higher than the other
similar projects, but a site visit should demonstate that the approach works.
<Dr- N'S
MEMORANDUM
TO: Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission
Pitkin County Planning and Zoning Commission
FROM: Suzanne Konchan, Director
Leslie Lamont, Deputy Director
DATE: June 20, 1995
RE: Affordable Housing Zone District and Resident Occupied
Text Amendments
SUMMARY: The AACP recommends the adoption of the Affordable
Housing zone district in the County and changes to the Resident
Occupied housing category for both the City and County Codes.
Both Commissions reviewed proposed changes approximately one year
ago at a public hearing. Staff has also presented the proposals
to the Council and Board in several worksessions. Because of the
time since P&Z� review and the significant changes that have
occurred since the last review, staff recommends a new review by
the P&Z at a public hearing.
The following proposals will: create two new Affordable Housing
(AH) zone districts in the County, revise current AH standards in
the City and revamp the Resident Occupied program for both the City
and County. Related issues to AH and RO development have also been
raised for discussion.
Please note, the City has just redefined allowable floor area and
made other significant changes to the Land Use Code regarding
residential development. All residential projects will be subject
to the new changes.
APPLICANT: Community Development Department
PROPOSAL: The items discussed in this memo can be summarized as
follows:
* Affordable Housing Zone District
- allowable floor area ratio amendments
- minimum lot sizes
- dimensional requirements set by PUD review
- existing code provisions that apply to AH
* Category 5
* Resident Occupied Program Revised
* Transfer of AH Development Rights onto Non-contiguous
Parcels
* Occupancy by Developer's Choice
* Transfers in Rural/Remote Zone
* Other County AH issues
PROCESS: Text amendments are a two step review process with the
Commission making recommendations to. Council and/or the Board.
Review of text amendments is a public hearing in the City.
STAFF COMMENTS:
A. DENSITY/FLOOR AREA RATIO (FAR) STANDARDS:
During the January 4th worksession, the BOCC and Council reviewed
the drafted AH zones and discussed both density (units/acre) and
FAR concerns. Initially, staff had raised concern that FAR
standards favored multi -family units rather than single family
units, and that we may be unintentionally penalizing the developer
proposing detached affordable dwellings. The elected officials
understood staff's concern, but felt that both the single family
and multi -family standards were generally too dense for the metro
area. To resolve the issue, elected officials directed staff to
examine the following options:
*_ Eliminate denser multi -family FAR standards and apply the
proposed single family sliding scale to all development within
the district.
* Draft language that would allow 80% of the revised FAR sliding
scale by right, with the additional 20% only through special
review.
* Examine a straight .5:1 Floor Area Ratio as compared to
sliding scales; especially in the County's Metro zone (AH
2/PUD) and County's AH 3/PUD zone (encompassing area:
downvalley from the Metro boundary to Aspen Village) . In this
scenario, guarantee a 1200 sq. ft. minimum house size for
single family dwellings.
Following additional staff Having analysis, the Council and BOCC
agreed that the discussion should be focused on the FAR sliding
scales, rather than the density standards. The discrepancy between
density! requirements (Minimum Lot Area per Dwelling Unit) for
detached and attached units is less apparent, and is applied on a
bedroom, or unit size, basis. The conclusion at both the Staff
and elected official- level maintains that the density standards are
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appropriate. Undoubtably neighborhood and site specific
constraints will be a focus for any land use review as to
appropriate density.
In the County's AH 3/PUD zone, staff recommends certain relatively
minor amendments to the density standards for consistency with the
AH 2/PUD zone. In certain cases, the originally drafted standards
allowed for higher density than proposed in the Metro area.
However, the standards are not substantially different between the
County's Metro zone and proposed extended "metro" (Aspen Village
and upvalley) zone. Initially, BOCC members expressed conpern that
these density standards are too aggressive for the non -metro area.
The density standards proposed for the AH 3/PUD zone, however,
mirrored the existing AH (aKa 'PMH') zone in the Land Use Code.
One area of minor revision in the AH 3/PUD and AH (existing 100%
affordable housing County -wide district) zones is the single family
and duplex density standard. As drafted, the minimum lot size must
be 6,000 sq. ft., but the minimum lot area per SFD and duplex is
3,000 sq. ft. We recommend these standards be consistent at 6,000
sq. ft. With that clarification, no further reductions in density
standards are recommended.
Floor area standards, however, were initially drafted to benefit
multi -family units. In the City AH 1/PUD zone, and the companion
AH 2/PUD County Metro zone, the most restrictive FAR applies to
proposed Detached Residential Dwellings. The ratio began at .8:1,
and decreased as the parcel size increases, in a series of steps.
The steps are generally depicted in the following table:
FAR Parcel Size (Square Feet)
.8:1 0-3,000
.8:1 to .54:1 31000 - 61000
.54:1 to .4:1 61000 - 91000
.4:1 to .15:1 9,000 - 39,000
<.15:1 39,000+ (House size caps at 5,770 sq. ft.)
Multi -Family unit FAR standards were also based on a sliding scale;
however, that scale focused on larger parcel sizes that tend to
accommodate multi -family projects. Smaller sized lots enjoyed the
highest FAR allowed in the zone, with the most permissible FAR
applying to lots of 27,000 sq. ft. and less in size. The previous
multi -family FAR standards are depicted by the following sliding
scale:
3
FAR
Parcel
Size
1.1:1
<27,000
sq. ft.
.36:1, increasable to
>27,000
sq. ft. -
1:1 by special review
43,560
sq. ft.
.36:1
1 - 3 acres
.33:1
>3 - 6
acres
.30:1
>6 - 9
acres
.27:1
>9 - 18
acres
.24:1
>18 acres
The primary concern in the multi -family table is the very high
ratio permitted for lots less than 27,000 sq. ft., and by special
review for lots as large as one acre. The 1.1:1 ratio may be
appropriate in the downtown core, but will be generally
incompatible with outlying neighborhoods, especially in the County
Metro area. Conversely, the relatively restrictive FAR that was
proposed for the single family sliding scale would not achieve
adequate densities for multi -family projects.
To address both of these concerns while ensuring an even playing
field between single family and multi -family designs, staff
suggests that in the AH zones allowed floor area be determined
based upon the entire project's lot area, also referred to as the
fathering parcel. This approach is a standard that applies as an
overall FAR for a parcel applying for subdivision approval through
the AH zones, rather than an FAR standard applying to the proposed
subdivided lots. Single family house sizes on proposed subdivided
lots in the AH zone will be reviewed as a function of the mandatory
PUD process, with house sizes capped at some determined level. At
this time, we have shown a cap of 5,770 sq. ft. for a single family
house, and 4,080 sq. ft. for a duplex. While there has been some
limited discussion on the appropriateness of these caps, staff
still seeks direction on this point.
There appears to be adequate protection against developers
cumulating all the floor area for the free market units in that:
* Minimum net livable sizes for category units are set by the
Housing Guidelines;
* Unit and bedroom mixes are set by district standards;
* AH Zone District Standards will be incorporated into the Code
as previously proposed (Exhibit 161); and
* PUD and subdivision in combination with these standards
provides the City and County adequate grounds and opportunity
to ensure quality, integrated projects.
After several worksessions, the elected officials propose the
following slidin+q scale in the AH Metro zones (City and County)
and AH 3/PUD 21: one :
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FAR Parcel Size (Square Feet)
1.1:1 0 - 15,000 sq. ft.
1:1 15,001 - 25,000 sq. ft.
.8:1 25,001 - 43,560 sq. ft.
.6:1 >1 - 3 acres
.36:1 >3 - 6 acres,:
.3:1 >6 acres
This new scale eliminates cumbersome FAR calculations previously
applied in the City 'AH' zone, and represents a series of
compromises between the single family, duplex and multi -family
scales previously proposed.
Additionally, the following text is proposed to be included at the
introduction of the FAR section:
"The allowable f loor area permitted in this zone is
determined by the following table. Sites may be
developed up to 85% of the allowed floor area. 100% of
the floor area may be'permitted by special review."
The previously proposed FAR sliding scale in the AH 3 /PUD zone also
mirrored the standards proposed in the Metro zones, as presented
above. In the Non -Metro portions of the County up -valley of Aspen
Village, where this zone will be available, existing lot sizes are
clearly larger in size than sites we might expect in the Metro
region. Therefore, if the revised approach is applied (FAR
determined for the project as a whole), more emphasis on the upper
end of the sliding scale is important. In fact, it is somewhat
unlikely that lots of less than 1 acre would be proposed for
development (arguably lots of this small size would be unusual for
this area). Nonetheless, the revised scale, combined with the 85%
by right standard, should provide an adequate framework for both
project development and County review.
In the County' s existing AH zone, which requires 100% category deed
restricted units, a flat .5:1 FAR exists. For County AH projects,
such as Williams Woods and Twin Ridge, this FAR has proven more
than adequate for development purposes. While it is more generous
than the sliding scale presented above for larger parcels, the
higher FAR can be justified in that it applies only to 100%
category deed restricted projects. In fact, the City may wish to
consider a bonus FAR process for 100% category projects.
A
Summary: Only minor changes to the density standards of the AH
3/PUD and AH zones have resulted through the worksession process.
A new FAR approach would be applied to both the AH Metro zones
(City and County), as well as the AH 3/PUD zone district. The new
proposal includes a single sliding scale for all types of units
(single family, duplex and multi -family) based on a compromise of
the originally proposed sliding scales. The new approach is a
standard that applies as an overall FAR for a parcel applying for
subdivision approval through the AH zones, rather than an FAR
standard applying to the proposed subdivided lots. This appears
the best way to avoid favoring detached over attached units.
Maximum house sizes can still be capped at 5770 sq. ft. Draft
language also includes the 85% by right, 100% by special review
procedure for FAR. These drafts are attached for review, Exhibits
A & B.
B. EXISTING CODE TOOLS TO BE USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE AH ZONES:
Members of the public and the elected officials have asked for
clarification as to our Planned Unit Development process, and
specifically how this tool could be used to vary dimensional
standards such as minimum lot sizes. The language for Planned Unit
Developments in both the Aspen and Pitkin County Land Use Codes
enable the minimum lot size to be averaged in order to accomplish
varying lot sizes. This is an important site design tool when
topographical or natural landscape features exist that should be
protected. This can also be used on larger parcels to achieve a
clustering of development, encourage preservation of large expanses
of open space within a development, and providing a range of
housing types and sizes in a development.
Concerns and questions were raised at worksessions such as how
small minimum lot sizes, on larger development parcels, would
create a cookie -cutter effect with little site design creativity
and dedicated open space. Language to address such issues has
recently been added to the Codes. It is proposed that the future
AH zone districts in the County, and the existing zone in the City,
have a mandatory PUD overlay for the zone district which would
necessitate a full PUD review process.
The current language is as follows:
If a variation is permitted in minimum lot area, the area of
any lot may be greater or less than the minimum requirement
of the underlying zone district, provided the total area of
all lots, when averaged, at least equals the permitted minimum
for the zone district. Any variation permitted shall be
clearly indicated on the final development plan.
In addition the following language for floor area calculation is
also included in the Aspen Code (this language was recently revised
and adopted):
6
Planned unit development. For planned unit development (PUD)
applications where land is held as common open space, and more
than one lot is proposed for development, the total floor area
for each lot shall be determined in the following manner:
The total area of each lot in the planned unit
development (PUD) shall be increased by an amount equal
to the total area of the land held as common open space
divided by the total number of lots proposed ,for
development.
Notwithstanding the above methodology for determining
floor area ratio for each lot, applicants may suggest
different methods for allocating the total floor area
allowed for the PUD to individual lots; provided that the
total floor area allowed for the PUD does not exceed the
cumulative total of the floor areas for each lot as
calculated by the above referenced method.
C. CATEGORY 5 UNITS:
The BOCC and Council requested that the Housing Board discuss
whether or not a Category 5 unit may still be necessary given the
agreed upon revision to the Resident Occupied definition. At this
time the Housing Office has recommended against creating a category
5 level of deed restriction.
D. RESIDENT OCCUPIED UNITS:
After several worksessions with Council and the Board, consensus
has been reached on all aspects of the Resident Occupied deed
restrictions.
The following aspects of the Resident Occupancy housing program
have been agreed upon by the Board and Council:
1. Household income: no restrictions
2. Net/Gross Asset: no restrictions
3. Initial sales price: no restrictions (set by developer)
4. Maximum Resale price/appreciation: The maximum resale price
is the purchase price plus four (4) percent (simply/not
compounded) of the purchase price for each year or portion
thereof, that the unit is owned.
5. Unit Size: The gross square footage for a unit is 2,200
square feet above grade, 800 square feet for a basement
(unfinished for initial sale if developer built and finished
rh
basement if employee built) plus a 500 square foot garage
which may be subject to changes in the code.
6. Employment Requirements: Applicants must demonstrate that
they are qualified employees and that they have three years
of consecutive full-time employment, as defined by the
Aspen/Pitkin County Housing Authority Affordable Housing
Guidelines, in Pitkin County immediately prior to application.
Seniors who are retired are required to demonstrate that they
were qualified employees for f ive consecutive years
immediately prior to retirement.
7. Primary Residence: Consistent with the Affordable Housing
Guidelines, any R.O. unit must be the owners' primary
residence. Proof of residency, including voter registration,
shall be required. Second homes owned within the Roaring Fork
Valley may be under contract.
8. Income/Earnings: Applicants must demonstrate that their
income/earnings are earned primarily in Pitkin County (75%).
Applicants must demonstrate that they pay Colorado Income Tax
as a Colorado resident, and shall provide three years of
previous Colorado income tax forms.
9. No entity ownership: All lots/units must be owned by an
individual.
10. Coordination with City and County Land Use Regulations:
a. R.O. units shall: be exempt from GMQS competition, but
shall be taken out of the annual quota; not be eligible
for GMQS impact mitigation; not be eligible for waiving
of tap fees or park dedication fees; not be eligible for
waiving of development review fees or building permit
fees. R.O. units must satisfy all other aspects of the
development review process.
11. Sales and Marketing: In terms of sales and marketing of R.O.
units, the Housing Office shall only qualify prospective
purchasers and review and approve contract terms. Units will
be bought and sold in the private sector; however, each sale
shall contribute a 1 % fee (of total sale price) to the overall
housing program. This fee will be collected in the same
fashion as the FNMA fee at closing.
12. Common Deed Restriction: The Housing Office shall develop a
common deed restriction for both City and County R.O. units.
In addition to the new guidelines , for a Resident Occupied unit, the
Council and Board are also considering the ability for a developer
to produce a 100% RO project by Special Review.
0
E. MEETING AH STANDARDS FOR ONE PROJECT ON TWO OR MORE NON-
CONTIGUOUS LOTS:
A prospective developer recently approached City planners with a
proposal to rezone an approximately 12,000 square foot parcel to
Affordable Housing and develop a free-market/deed restricted
residential project. He also proposed to relocate (transfer) some
of the required density off of the existing parcel to a non-
contiguous site, rather than construct all the units on one parcel.
The developer cited several reasons for the request: V
1. The relatively small size of the parcel.
2. For AH zoned parcels, a significant amount of density is
allowed as an incentive and is necessary to comply with 70/30
percent requirement but is also necessary to meet development
costs.
3. It is difficult to efficiently comply with 70/30 percent
requirements on small parcel.
4. It is also difficult to provide adequate open space,
parking etc. on a small parcel.
5. Finally, for a small parcel the site design suffers and the
quality of the AH units usually suffers.
Except for the Rural and Remote zone district in the County, the
Land Use Codes do not provide for the "transfer of development
rights" (TDR) from one parcel to another. In fact, this type of
proposal may be better described as a transfer of development
"responsibility."
In addition to the obvious impediment that the Codes do not provide
a mechanism for "TDRs", staff has identified other grounds for not
entertaining this type of proposal:
1. A primary goal of the AH zone district is the integration
of AH units into free-market development projects and/or
neighborhoods.
2. Another goal of the AH zone district is to support deed
restricted housing in all neighborhoods.
3. Deed restricted housing could be "transferred" onto,
marginal parcels.
However, despite staff s obvious misgivings about this approach to
development of AH projects, there are also several merits to this
idea:
A
1. Typically the quality of affordable units. on small parcels
is severely compromised when free market units are also
developed on site. Usually the AH units are designed to be
placed partially below grade, or the back of free market
units.
2. When AH units ."stand alone" the units are typically
occupied by residents from the Housing Office inventory and
are not filled by caretakers or friends of adjacent free
market owners.
3. Locating some density off -site provides more site design
flexibility on small parcels.
4. This would provide an additional incentive for small in -
fill type AH developments.
The Board does not want to pursue this variation in the County.
The Council wanted to continue their discussion of the idea.
If the City P&Z were to consider this type of development
alternative, there are several issues that would need to be
resolved:
1. The appropriate proximity of the relocation site to the
original development parcel should be established.
2. Would the minimum 70/30 mix be required and/or would
additional density be allowed or required for deed restricted
units;
3. How would FAR be calculated?
4. Would both sites be required to be rezoned to "AH?"
F. SHOULD REQUIRED CATEGORY UNITS IN THE AH ZONE BE "DEVELOPER'S
CHOICE," OR SOLD THROUGH THE HOUSING OFFICE LOTTERY AND PRIORITY
SYSTEM?
Under the City's current AH program, all category and RO units are
available for purchase by anyone designated by the developer who
meets minimum guideline standards, or "developer's choice." In
fact, under the existing program, category units do not require
purchasers to have worked in the Valley for any specified amount
of time, and may be sold to purchasers who do not meet minimum
occupancy guidelines (a singe person may purchase a 3 bedroom
unit). At this time, onlylincome/asset requirements and proof of
present employment are required of prospective occupants.
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The rationale for allowing developer's choice is based on several
factors. A majority of the Housing Board supports this program
primarily because it offers the most incentive to developers.
Additionally, they recognize that this may assist in the pre -
financing of a project. Furthermore, it has been argued that these
units are not "required" under the Land Use Codes to mitigate free
market development, such as required in the GMQS.
In recent Housing Board meetings, members have cited the need to
allow "developer's choice" as a needed incentive to lure the
private sector to develop 'AH' housing.. Portions of the discussion
included the fact that certain developers are able to secure
reduced construction costs if units are made available to the
project contractor.
Since the mixed AH concept is a new mechanism in the Land Use Code,
Community Development raised the issue for debate before the
elected officials. Staff is specifically concerned about the sale
of category units outside the established lottery program, where
a series of priority levels have been developed for the equitable
dispersion of these units.
While AH developments are exempted from GMQS competition, the new
quota system (as amended this January) does limit the number of
units permitted annually. Moreover, the 40% of each 'AH' project
required to be designated category housing is in fact a "Code"
requirement, and at least in part is necessary to off -set employee
impacts generated by the 3 0 % free market component of the project.
Although only a fraction of the category mix could be directly
linked to off -setting direct employee impacts, the developer is
enjoying significant benefit from having the free market aspect of
the project exempt from GMQS competition. As such, it would be
problematic to assert that these were not "required" under the Land
Use Code.
In addition, the AH district offers substantially increased density
and FAR standards than available in other residential districts.
As such, several elected officials have recognized that the
increased density is a form of public subsidy that is offered to
developers who pursue development in this zone.
While offering incentives to develop under the AH zone was an
important aspect of this program in the past, it is difficult to
judge how the reduction in GMQS competition and exemption quotas
will affect our need to provide further incentives (beyond GMQS
exemptions) for developers to seek approvals in this district.
In addition, there is a potential equity issue, in that Planning
staff believes that we should strive to ensure that units deed
restricted under our Housing Guidelines are available to all
members of the community. To date, the lottery system has offered
11
the best platform to providing an equal opportunity for the
community to obtain affordable housing. While Planning staff tends
to believe that the entire 40% category mix are required units most
appropriately distributed through the lottery process, we have also
suggested other options such as a program whereby some of these
units are "developer's choice", and some percent are subject to
sale through the lottery.
The outstanding issue is the benefit developers derive from being
able to provide proof of "reservations" for category units to
potential lenders. As presently devised, our lottery system does
not qualify purchasers until immediately before occupancy is
available. While not within our general field of expertise in the
Community Development Department, we have been able to conf irm that
there are options to amend our lottery process which could provide
prospective lenders of either public or private projects proof that
bona fide purchasers are available. Solutions such as holding
lotteries at regular intervals or earlier in the process should be
explored. Other options may be as simple as
maintaining/establishing a record of qualified employees who are
interested in purchasing units. As most local lenders must no
doubt realize, their is a very strong market for category units in
the community. The hurdle -may be how that fact is communicated to
prospective lenders. We suggest that lenders be interviewed to
explore alternatives that would meet their needs.
This item was extensively discussed at the joint meeting, but left
unresolved. The City Council members tended to support the
existing program as described above. Among the primary attributes.
of the present policy, as described by Council members, was the
ability of relative newcomers to the community to have a chance to
buy a category unit even though they would not be ranked among the
priority residents based on their short tenure in the community.
Secondly, the present policy provides residents an opportunity to
overcome minimum occupancy requirements of the guidelines and
purchase a unit with one or more "extra" bedrooms.
The Board, however, desires to set a standard whereby the 40,
category units would be distributed for sale through the
established lottery system. If a project seeks exemption for all
or a portion of the category units to be available to select
qualified employees, a Special Review request could be made
concurrently with the application. That review should be used to
evaluate whether unique circumstances are present. Nonetheless,
under no circumstances will minimum occupancy standards be waived.
G. HOW SHOULD TRANSFER OF DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS FROM THE COUNTY'S NEW
RURAL/REMOTE ZONE BE ACCOUNTED IN THE METRO AREA ALLOTMENTS?, -
During the adoption of the County's Rural and Remote zone district
in 1994, the County provided for an exemption from GMQS for units
transferred from sites zoned R/R to other parcels within the Metro
12
area and the expanded AACP housing study area (Aspen Village and
up -valley). The number of units permitted through a TDR proposal
was subject to special review. To date, the County has not
established guidelines for reviewing TDR proposals, except those
already established through our Special Review section of the Code.
Unfortunately, during the metro GMQS amendments, adopted this
January jointly by the BOCC and City Council, staff failed to
address how this exemption section should be treated in terms of
annual development allotments. Under the newly adopted GMQS
exemption section, each exemption is described as either:
Ap
* Not deducted from the Metro Area development allotments and
development ceilings, or
* Deducted from the Metro Area development allotments and
ceilings.
Examples of those types of units falling in the "not deducted"
category in the County Code include: units on lots subdivided
before June 12, 1978; remodeling/restoration/reconstruction;
essential community facilities; and, development approved pursuant
to subdivision exemption. The remaining exemptions are all to be
deducted from allotments and ceilings, and include: dwellings in
the AH zone and/or restricted to affordable housing price and
income guidelines; employee and caretaker units; commercial
development with negligible impacts; change in use of an existing
structure; and additional units on lots which contain historic
resources.
While the above lists were devised based generally on the AACP,
the concept of a Rural/Remote District and a TDR program had not
been conceived during the AACP process. In some TDR cases, we will
be dealing with a TDR that is derived from a lot with' a pre-1978
GMQS right in the Rural/Remote zone (R/R). In those cases, it
could be argued that we are simply transferring the GMQS right from
one site to another to obtain a desired outcome. While no site in
the Metro area will be zoned R/R, those sites considered for
transfer into the Metro or expanded Metro area will be only -those
sites located in Valleys in the upper Roaring Fork Valley (Little
Annie basin, Independence Pass, Castle/Maroon Creek Valleys, Hunter
Creek and Lenado).
However, some applicants may propose that a TDR and GMQS exemption
be granted, even if the sending site does not have all the GMQS
rights to transfer with the development. An example may include
a several hundred acre holding in R/R with presently one GMQS right
based upon merger, proposing a TDR for two or more units in the
Metro area. While the development would require analysis under
special review, staff needs direction as to how we should draft
Code language to deal with the allotment pools and development
ceilings.
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While this is arguably a Pitkin County issue, it could affect
build -out and development in the Metro area. Therefore, we raised
this issue as a discussion item on April 4th. At that time, City
Council members appeared unwilling to address the issue without
understanding the possible number of TDR's which may 'apply under
the TDR regulations. The results of the County Is' action on
Rural/Remote rezoning will drastically affect how, staff might
provide the City the type of build -out analysis they seek for
discussion of the Metro allotment pools. In the Little Annie R/R
planning area, staff estimates.some 50± units are possible under
build -out. In the other upper -valley proposed R/R rezoning areas,
staff estimates that an additional 176 units could be theoretically
constructed based on the R/R zones 35 acre minimum lot
requirements.
Some, but probably not all, of the R/R properties may actually
propose some type of TDR proposal. Moreover, even if every site
zoned R/R proposed a TDR scheme (a scenario we believe would not
occur), the County may require multiple R/R rights be extinguished
in exchange for metro area development. As an alternative, the
County may decide to codify more specific TDR standards, that may
include a ratio requirement based upon acreage.
In the non -metro boundary (downvalley from the Airport), the
exemption for TDR's presents no particular issue as allotment pools
and joint City adoption is not involved. In theory, However, the
metro boundary may be an important element toward promoting a
successful TDR program. This is especially true given the other
land use restrictions which have been adopted in relationship to
GMQS, and thus the demand which may be generated for purchase of
these development rights. Unlike most TDR programs, the density
of a site may not need to be increased to generate a "market" for
their purchase. Instead, owners may find the GMQS exemption alone
offsets the cost of purchasing the right. In that event, the
overall development ceiling (30,000 peak population) would not be
compromised.
The County considered this issue at a subsequent worksession in
late April. The issue is presently unresolved and requires more
debate and analysis before a resolution can be reached. Staff will
continue to address outstanding TDR issues and anticipates
developing more specific TDR standards. If P&Z members have
comments or suggestions, staff would appreciate your input.
I. OTHER PITKIN COUNTY "AH" ISSUES:
* Expedited processing treatment and procedures for mixed AH
projects:
At a recent worksession this issue was raised in reference to a
100% RO project. A County policy regarding the priority processing
14
treatment and waiving of planning fees for other than 100% Category
housing projects has not been developed. In their recommendations
regarding RO housing, and presented at the previous joint
worksessions, the Housing Board recommended that RO units should
not be eligible for waiving of tap fees or park dedication fees;
not be eligible for waiving of development review fees or building
permit fees; and must satisfy all other aspects of the development
review process. Depending upon the scale of the proposal we may
receive, cost of processing an AH project (either a mix of free
market, RO and category units or 100% RO) will range based on the
complexity of the proposal. Obviously a 2 unit project will be
less timely to process than a project of several dozen4 or more
units.
The current City policy for AH mixed projects are to charge normal
planning office fees, tap fees and park dedication fees, but
provide for priority calendar treatment. The Board supports this
policy for the treatment of AH projects in the county. If a
project is 100% AH-/RO then the costs shall be split so. the RO units
help subsidize the fees.
1. The extension of a GMQS exemption for AH mixed development in
the downvalley planning area:
As a result of a recent worksession whereby Craig 'Glendenning
unveiled an AH (30/30/40) development scenario for an Emma site,
some BOCC members suggested that the BOCC revisit extending the
GMQS exemption for mixed projects beyond the Aspen Village area.
As you may recall, the Aspen Village boundary was established
through the Housing Committee of the AACP. The goal was to house
60 % of the Aspen area workforce upvalley of this boundary, to help
maintain a viable community in the upper valley. Obviously,
concentrated housing closer to an employee's place of work reduces
transportation and air quality impacts. However, real estate
markets in the mid- and down -valley portions of Pitkin County have
increased dramatically.
Having considered this issue, the BOCC has indicated that the mixed
AH zone shall be limited to the AACP housing study area, as
recommended in the AACP.
2. Should commercial uses accessory to the housing development be
exempted from GMQS?
The draft AH2 and AH 3 (County) zones allow such commercial uses
as a use permitted by special review. However, no companion GMQS
amendment had been discussed as an element of this proposal. The
GMQS amendments adopted in January allowed for a GMQ'S exemption
for both essential community facilities, as wells as commercial
development with negligible growth impacts. It is difficult to
predict what types of "commercial" uses might be proposed through
the AH zone, and whether they may qualify under either of these
15
provisions. Staff sought BOCC direction as to whether a new
exemption for accessory commercial uses in the AH zone should be
drafted. Their direction was not to amend the code at this time.
Accessory commercial in the AH zone shall be evaluated for GMQS
compliance based upon the current exemption standards.
RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends approval of the amendments to the
AH zone district in the City and -the creation of the new AH zone
districts in the County. Staff recommends approval of the
revisions to the Resident Occupied housing program. Staff also
recommends an expedited review process for County AH projects.
Staff recommends continuation of the public hearing for further
discussion of the following items:
* AH Project on Two or More Non-contiguous Lots in the City
* Transfer.of Development Rights from the'Rural/Remote Zone
ALTERNATIVES:
1. The Planning and Zoning Commissions can provide
comments/recommendations on any or all of the amendments to the
Board and Council for more discussion.
2. A worksession for all the decision -makers could be scheduled
to discuss all of the issues.
3. Table changes to pending additional analysis.
RECOMMENDED MOTION:
"I move to recommend to the City Council/Board of County
Commissioners the creation of Affordable Housing zone districts in
Pitkin County."
"I move to recommend to the City Council the proposed text
amendments to the Affordable Housing zone district in the City of
Aspen."
"I move to recommend to City Council/Board of County Commissioners
the revisions to the Resident Occupied housing program."
EXHIBITS:
1. City AH Code Amendments
2. County AH 2/PUD zone district
3. County AH 3/PUD zone district
16
RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
In attendance were, for the City: Sara Garton, Jasmine Tygre,
Roger Hunt, Tim Mooney, Steve Buettow, and Robert Blaich. Excused
was: Marta Chaikovska.
In attendance were, for the County: Suzanne Caskey, David Guthrie,
Shellie Harper, G. Steve Whipple, Jake Vickery, George Krawzoff,
and Cathy Tripodi. Excused were: Jack Hatfield and Ben Dorman.
Chairperson Sara Garton of the City was asked to chair the joint
meeting, and she called the meeting to order stating, this meeting
is called to order between the Aspen Planning & Zoning Commission
and the Pitkin County Planning & Zoning Commission to discuss the
Affordable Housing Zone District and Resident Occupied Text
Amendment.
Cindy Houben, Director of Long Range Planning, and Leslie Lamont,
Deputy Director of Community Development represented staff during
the meeting, and Dave Tolen, Director of Housing, attended.
Houben stated, first of all, I wanted to say, even though I copied
the June 20th memorandum for you in the packet, I forgot to copy
the actual text amendment, so I will pass those around now, in case
you want to refer to those.
Houben stated, the City P&Z had asked us for a little update on the
AH and RO, and we haven't been back to you in so long, that I know
that you will have tons of questions, so there's no question that
you shouldn't feel uncomfortable asking about AH and RO. I think
when I left back in January, I thought we were at the point where
we were moving through the process; we had gone through P&Z and I
was going to the Board and the Council, and that's exactly what
happened. They had joint meetings and they made some changes. So,
the reason we are back before you again with AH and RO, is because
there were changes that the City Council and the Board recommended.
I think that the changes that they proposed were really good
changes, and I think that they are not inconsistent with the
philosophy that I saw before I left, as far as, where we would go
with AH and RO. Just as a brief reminder, the City AH regulations
have been revised, there were existing City AH regulations; the
County is, through this process, adopting AH regulations for the
metro area and for the area between Aspen Village Mobile Home Park
and the metro area. All these revisions are the codes of the Aspen
Area Community Plan and working together jointly to reach our goals
for affordable housing, in terms of 60 percent of the work force
living up -valley from Aspen Village Mobile Home Park. That's just
kind of a brief background, and if anybody else says, why are we
here, let me know real quickly.
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS
AUGUST 1, 1995
Houben stated, one thing I would like to do before I get too deep
into this, is, I asked Dave Michaelson, our new planner, to come
in and meet everyone. Dave comes to us from Garfield County, and
he was their head planner for several years, he has a great
backgound, and things we need here in transportation, and a lot of
computer background. Dave introduced himself and stated he was
happy to be here.
Houben stated, I did have several discussions with people about AH
and RO; I think the way I would like to approach this is to go over
the amendments real quickly with you that were proposed by the City
Council and the Board of County Commissioners, so we don't have to
backtrack forever, and the City would be very bored if we backtrack
forever, and while we are doing this, if the County has questions,
let's talk about them. Then, we'll talk about the process a little
bit and a couple of changes that Leslie and Dave and I want to make
sure are clear.
Houben continued stating, the major change that I thought was a
great idea, was the sliding scale approach and incorporating the
plan unit allotment concept in the FARs that we worked with in
looking at a parcel. Originally, when the City adopted the AH Zone
District, the way that it was adopted, it was that we would look
at each subdivided parcel within the bigger parcel as an individual
parcel with its own floor area ratio. The way that ended up
working was that it always came in favor of the multi -family units
in terms of FAR. Whereas, now, the approach is, we would like to
create some single-family homes in the area for families and long-
term residents. So, the approach here, is that we will take the
entire parcel that comes in, and we look at that parcel in terms
of its overall FAR based on a sliding scale, and when you look at
an entire parcel, then you look at an overall maximum that that
site can have, as far as FAR goes, and then you can smooth it out
anyway you want, then, ask a review body. We then, have the
ability to look at the size that is given to multi -family versus
single-family, and how that is divided among the parcel. It is
just another angle, looking at. FAR, that might accomplish our goals
a little better.
Houben referred to a viewing board and stated, what I tried to do
is write this out and show you what the existing land use code says
as far as detached and multi -family under the FAR. And, those are
the parcel sizes based on each individual lot. It favored the
multi -family, but didn't fully address the total capacity of the
parcel at one time, but it did provide each lot with a clear amount
of FAR; each specific lot. Now, because each specific lot had to
be negotiated as we go for this review process, we talked about how
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
important it is that this left over floor area, that we know where
that's going to go in the future in the covenants for the
subdivision. The example is, at Midland Park, there was a whole
review done back in the 1970's, and there's an additional FAR
floating around out there, but it is not "diveed-up" to each
individual unit, and as a Homeowners Association, we have to deal
with who gets what, when they ask for certain enclosures. So, what
we would like to see is that that is dealt with right up front in
subdivision covenants so we are not dealing with it in a half -
hazard way down the road.
Lamont stated, could I just interject, just for a moment. Do you
all understand why we were concerned that the FARs favoring multi-
family versus single-family detached? The emphasis is toward
small, detached, and we were having a list of people who were
considered for small, detached, and the FAR didn't.help at all.
Houben stated, again, with the FAR approach changing to the PUD
concept, what the proposal is before you is that any developer
could use 85% of the FAR by right, and that, if you want to use
that additional 1596- up to 1000, you have to come in for special
review, to review the merits of the proposal.
Garton asked, Cindy, is that special review the new special review
board that has just been established?
Houben answered, no, that's the Design Review Board, and it
wouldn't be the same. I'm sorry, in the County we call it special
review, here, we call it conditional use. It would be conditional
use if we have additional square footage.
Garton stated, I think I asked this at our last meeting; that Board
though, will not be made up of members from both?
Lamont answered, if you are in the City, you would go through the
special review process of the City, which we already have
established.
Garton stated, but that is different from the new Design Review
Board?
Lamont stated, right. The Board members who had this idea of the
85% and the 1000, came from our Interim Overlay process. If you
want to go above 850, then, you would go through a different
review. So, why don't we say, everybody gets 85 0, but if they want
to go up to 100%, then, it would be special review. We aren't sure
what additional review it would be, because you are going through
a whole PUD subdivision process, but what it tells developers is
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PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
the 100 o allowable floor area is not only given, you wouldn't have
to have special circumstances by.which you would want to go talk
to personnel and worry about where that floor area is going to be
shifted around. We'll look at that very closely, especially when
you get into the County and you get into the bigger parcels where
open space, and clustering are going to be more important than just
stray parcels.
Tripodi asked, what would be an example of one of the larger
spaces?
Houben answered, of a larger parcel? Pitkin Iron. Pitkin Iron is
38 acres.
Harper asked, I noticed on this that it said that Kraut is 110 o and
Cohousing 1040. Does that mean that no longer would anybody be
able to go over 1000, if this is inacccurate?
Dave Tolen, Director of Housing, answered, anything up to 15,000
sq. ft. You could get 1100 on this parcel, no bigger than 15,000
sq. ft., so, Kraut is 15,000 sq. ft.
Harper stated, oh, I see. So, it is the size.
Houben stated, the other thing the City regulation addresses right
now, is a maximum single-family size of 5, 700 sq. ft. , whereas, the
County doesn't have a maximum size for single-family, and we wanted
to bring this up tonight. We felt it was important to add a cap
and to the equation that single-family homes within the AH
subdivisions could get a lot to the same for 5,700, or whatever the
County felt was appropriate. 5,700 was a number that we came to
at City Council, the Board of County Commissioners heard from the
City side, but they really haven't dealt with it either, and we are
wondering if the County has any recommendation or any ideas about
a cap, or even if you want to deal with a cap size in the AH zone
districts?
Harper stated, are those for free market or for the affordable
housing?
Houben stated, it would probably be for free market, but it would
be single-family home size.
Whipple stated, you want to bring it up now?
Houben stated, yes.
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JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
Lamont stated, the reason why we felt it was necessary to have a
cap on the units when we created the City AH Zone District, is that
we wanted to have some compatiability between the matching of the
structures within the AH project. So, the idea is that you have
deed -restricted housing combined with free market housing and you
didn't want to have such a huge disparity, and what I am concerned
about is, that if we don't have a cap in the County, then, all your
floor areas are going to be put into the free market units and you
are going to get very small deed -restricted units. Where, if you
had a cap on the free market, it would encourage some of the floor
area to go into the deed -restricted.
Harper asked, isn't there a minimum on the deed -restricted? You
don't like the Red Stone Concept, where you have a castle and
little cottages around?
Lamont stated, it is easier to talk about a cap in the City because
we have much smaller parcels, and so, when we talk about a cap of
5,700, personally, I've always thought that was too big, but I
agree with Steve, when you get into the County, they are bigger
areas and you have the ability to have deed -restricted and free
market a little bit more separate, it may not be as big of an issue
in the County.
Garton stated, what about establishing a cap, then, and then,
again, if you want to go above that cap issue with FAR, it's a
special review. There may be very good circumstances to do that,
but I agree, the probability of the project, the looks of it, it
doesn't make sense to have a futile look of the big homes and the
little cottages.
Whipple asked, how about a ratio?
Garton stated, I'm not very good at visualizing that.
Whipple stated, in other words, the deed-retricted unit is a
certain proportion of the floor area, and I'm trying to address
Leslie's problem, a certain portion of your FAR has to be utilized
on deed -restricted.
Harper stated, I'd be more comfortable with a ratio than trying to
pre -determine how it should look, by giving an arbitrary figure at
this point.
There was discussion at random between Tripodi and Lamont and
Harper regarding a project behind the Aspen Club. Lamont stated
that one of the parcels was an acre in size, and so, if there had
not been a cap, it could have been a much larger unit.
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
Tripodi stated, I just think sometimes you put all these
restrictions on developers, and you limit their ability to be
creative and come up with what would ultimately be the best product
for the site, when you restrict them to certain caps. That's why
I would probably tend to vote more toward what Shellie and Steve
were saying, that there be a ratio to give them that guidance.
Harper stated, I would also like to see something on Sara' s special
review. My observation, in the County has been, developers are
afraid of our special review process, they don't want to mess with
this, so, they have built these most obscene houses that are
humongous with bedrooms the size of these three rooms, and put in
five bedrooms. So, I would really like to see something that is
a little more flexible, that will get what we want without them not
wanting to go through special review, because they are afraid of
US.
Garton stated, so, you are saying you have a bedroom count, not a
square footage count.
Harper stated, so, you end up with 15,000 sq. ft. houses with five
bedrooms, and they are a joke when you see them, I feel.
Caskey stated, the County has been through the cap question before,
and at that time the Board of County Commissioners indicated that
it was strongly in support of that. The Planning & Zoning
Commission worked really hard, and we* ended up with a significant
split that was, actually, due to the working relationship on the
Commission at that time, because there was a very clear split.
Then, what happened, we went on to some riotous meetings with
public hearings with the Board of County Commissioners while they
were continuing to say that it was supportive of house size limit,
or a cap of some kind, and the end result was that the Planning
Commission got put out on a limb to dry.
Caskey continued stating, although I believed strongly, and I still
do, in a cap, for all the reasons that I did then, I know how messy
this issue gets and the commissioners have been making sounds again
like they are ready to deal with that particular issue. Maybe, I'm
ready to get hung out there again.
Caskey stated, the last time we did it, Dwight Shellman was serving
on the Planning Commission. He said at the time of the five
bedroom rule was established in the 1970s, the thought was, on
behalf of the three commissioners, including Dwight, that saying
five bedrooms meant to them about 5,000 sq. ft., that was the
largest they could imagine. If you looked at that time at what
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JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
went on in the rest of the country, and what still does, I think
some of this information that we've gotten from you that an average
home size for the rest of this country is about 2,000 sq. ft. So,
5,000 sq. ft. is still going to be pushing it.
Caskey continued stating, knowing that that is what the
commissioners thought at the time, that the f ive bedroom rule would
work, that was the kind of size of house that they were planning
on in terms of the services that were going to be provided in the
infra -structure . So, I supported that kind of limit, and, in fact,
I supported something much less than that, thinking that it would
be "fiddled" with in the process, and maybe the upper limit would
be 5,000 sq. ft. I am still supportive of that, I told the
contractors who were very much against the proposal at the time of
the cap, I told them exactly why; it had a lot to do with character
and scale, even in the County, even in large parcels, and it is
hard for me to look at saying, it's O.K. for us to say to local,
permanent residents in the County for affordable housing, that
there will be a cap on the size of those homes. Then, there's
another category where it is O.K. to say, that you can build it to
15,000 sq. ft., or whatever. I agree with Leslie, that 5,700 sq.
ft., even if we are talking about affordable housing, is a biq
house, that is really big. There has to be some equity, it seems,
to me in this; that you can't say that it's O.K. for the working
people who support the town, who have given their time over the
years, who come in here to make this home and make this a balanced
community, but for everybody else you can do tons more. I can't
make all those pieces go together. So, I would still support a
cap.
Commissioner Hunt of the City entered the meeting during Caskey's
comments.
Krawzoff stated, I would like to throw in on that side a little
bit, as well, particularly thinking about the reviews we've gone
through in the past couple of years. Many of the applicants have
voluntarily accepted a cap and in other cases we were able to
establish them. I think 6,000 sq. f t . has been sort of the "norm",
as an upper level. In the cases where we didn't have any "norm"
established, I wished we could have, so, I would vote to establish
one now, in this context.
Blaich asked, what has been our experience on AH with that 5,700
sq. ft.? Has anybody gone that big in affordable housing?
Lamont asked, with the deed -restricted units or just in the AH zone
district? Blaich stated, well, deed -restricted. Lamont answered,
no. Blaich stated, to me, it doesn't add up, I mean, affordable
7
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
housing at 5,700 sq. ft. doesn't match. Lamont stated, we do have
a cap on RO which is being proposed as part of this legislation.
We just have a minimum size on the deed -restricted units,
Categories 1 through 4. They don't have a maximum size because if
someone wanted to build a bigger Category 4 home.
Houben asked, in the free market portion of the AH that we have in
the City, has anyone ever had a problem being capped at 5,700?
Lamont answered, no, in fact, when AH was first adopted, it was
much lower, it was around 3,600 to 4,300, then, our first Ute
Place, Ute Park, the one at the end of Ute Avenue, they came in and
requested to amend the code to go up a little bit higher because
they said finanically they needed to be competitive with the other
free markets in the City. Rarely, have we had someone go up to the
cap in the City, but when we started using, for example, the Pitkin
Iron site and that acreage and that floor area all of a sudden,
even at .3, which is greater than 6 acres, it is a hugh amount of
floor area.
Caskey stated, when we looked at average home sizes in the County
before, am I right that, we came up with 3,600 sq. ft . that was
average?
Houben answered, what we tried to do was take, and we didn't do all
of the County, what we did was free market subdivisions in the
County all the way from the Basalt area, up in the Mountain Valley
area, and we took a sampling, and it was around 3,600.
Whipple stated, I've got to paint the picture of the other side of
the coin, that's the reason why I'm here. One of the driving
forces on affordable housing is this free market section, and the
costs involved with the process, and I'm saying with the process
on when we limit growth, you are seeing the unfortunate occurences
of land prices rising to a point where they are disproportionate
to anything that is real, in the real world; Kansas City,
Milwaukee. And so, one of the things I am injecting, I agree
with you in what is a good, viable size, that you don't want to
have affordable housing "dwafted", that you don't want to set up
a kind of futile community. I'm really on board with all that, but
the market place has to realize some of the pluses and the minuses,
and when we have people come before us. There is such a list of
extractions and things that we want; by-pass here, this open space
in this section, and we would like to have the different amenities
that we work for. I not saying that it can't happen, and I'm not
saying that there won't be people that come through it, but I'm not
sure where the number is.
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JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
Garton stated, don't forget what the developer is getting in
affordable housing, they get a lot more density.
Whipple stated, it all sounds good, and I'm not saying it doesn't,
what I'm saying is, you have your initial cost, and those are in
disproportionate increments.
Garton stated, we are here for planning, not to guarantee a profit
to a developer, and I also have trouble when RO has a cap, and
there isn't a cap on this. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Whipple stated, I'm just saying, that where you are going, in terms
of percentages, to me it seems a more equitable way. It doesn't
say, you have to live in this size unit, and you there, you have
to live in that size unit. It is an automatic "drag" on your
affordable housing, that's going to be increased if they want to
make the free market a certain size, and without even knowing it,
you are making better affordable housing units.
Garton stated, it is a "drag" on the affordable housing?
Whipple stated, it drags it out, it pulls it up. It drags the size
of the affordable housing up larger. Take your formula, say you
want to have 3,000 sq. ft. in the affordable housing, and you want
6,000 sq. ft. in the free market, in otherwords, it is half the
size. It's 8,000 sq. ft., they've got to come up with almost,
maybe, 4,000 which would be the largest affordable housing unit;
they have that option.
Tolen stated, a very possible result, which is not just that you
would make your affordable housing bigger, because at some point,
economically, that doesn't make sense, but you might do better than
70/30 mix if you could do larger free market units.
Garton stated, is there anything more you want to add to this?
Houben stated, well, I don't feel that I have concensus on which
way to go, if caps is the way out, or if the ratio is totally it.
I don't really feel that there is concensus on that on the County
side. I think the City feels comfortable with the cap in the City
limits of 5,700 on the free market side. But the metro and the
further extension of the County area, I' m not sure what everybody' s
really saying.
Jake Vickery asked, this Exhibit 1 is your latest text amendment
"stuff"?
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Houben stated, that's City.
Vickery stated, this chapter here, basically, is all these projects
are now going to become PUDs, regardless of how big they are. A
small project, 12,000 f t . lot, that project would still be reviewed
PUD, so, similar over at Williams Ranch; City Council in that
situation sort of dictated as part of the approval process, part
of the re -zoning process, part of the PUD, I guess it is a PUD.
Lamont stated, no, it was never a PUD. Vickery stated, all of
these projects are going to have to go through a re -zone to become
AH. At that time, a count can be set, or a balance can be set.
Houben stated, if I were a developer though, I think that would
give me a lot less guarantee of anything, and everytime I walked
in a door you're going to set a different cap on me; I think that's
a little scarier than knowing what the rules are up front.
Vickery stated, well, as a practical matter, it happens everywhere,
so, even if you had a maximum size of your unit of 6,000 and they
decided 4,350, or something, was more compatiable, or better, then
that is part of the negotiations, it is capped at 4,300. From a
developer, they are going to attempt to do that.
Houben stated, I'd say that that was conditional re -zoning that is
entirely illegal.
Vickery stated, well, from a practical matter, it happens.
Lamont stated, Williams Ranch, it was part of their 8040 Greenline
Review that the FARs would be at 85%, and if they wanted to go up
to 1000, individual parcels had to come through a site specific
8040 Greenline Review process. So, that's how the free market FARs
and Williams Ranch were established at 850.
Vickery stated, I would just like to make one other point, I find
it interesting that all the projects now are going to be going
through a PUD process. It seems like all the objective criteria
and merit criteria regarding lot sizes, side yard setbacks, all
that "stuff" has been deleted, and now it's just kind of according
to some section. It is blank in this Exhibit, it refers to some
section, what does that say?
Houben stated, this is the section that, basically, says when you
have a PUD you have the flexibility of determining what your
setbacks and a lot of the dimensional requirements are going to be.
Lamont added stating, it is a PUD section out of the code.
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Vickery stated, now, in the County, is that same kind of proportion
proposed in the County, and proposed for all AH projects, and that
there be, basically, unlimited flexibility on the site development
plan based on whatever the developer could work out with the Board?
Houben stated, there is a lot more flexibility in the County,
obviously, because there are such great parcels. I mean, you've
got large parcels out there. It has actually been in the
Permanent Moderate Housing Section of the County Code; before this
last revision, we changed it to the Affordable Housing Section, and
it has always been in there at pretty much the same density levels,
which are really high. I don't perceive that there is any problem
with flexibility.
Lamont stated, the reason we wanted to go to PUD is that we have
not seen an AH project yet, except, maybe, for Williams Ranch, that
did not need to go to PUD. The Langley's,. East Cooper Court,
because of the Historic Landmark Designation, was able to vary
side -yard setbacks in order to help out the site design in the
project, so, that's why we decided to get rid of the rigid
dimensional requirements, because AH can be located in any
neighborhood in the City or in any area or neighborhood of the
County. So, the idea was to allow the site planner to take
advantage of the surrounding characteristics of the neighborhood
and then, establish the setbacks, open space, things like that, the
other review process, primarily based upon the compatiability with
the surrounding neighborhood. I mean, an AH project in the west
end will be very different than an AH project, like Juanstreet,
where you have multi -family housing, or the Langley's at East
Cooper Court. So, what we found ourselves doing is taking someone
who was going through the re -zoning process who said, oh, I've got
to go through PUD anyway, and they come into the PUD process. So,
that's why we just changed it down to the PUD process.
Mooney stated, maybe that's why the ratio and the cap, together,
might work, because it then gives the PUD the most flexibility, and
economically, to deal with the categories and to have the wild card
become an RO, gives the developer the capability of balancing out
what his economic needs are out of his affordable housing in order
to make his actions work for the free market, the cost that he can
get. So, maybe, the bigger the free market units, the bigger the
category units can be, and then, with an RO, a kind of wild card,
you can really charge more what the market price is, and put very
few permanent restrictions on an RO, that that might be enough
flexibility to get the developer interested in a certain amount of
profit. Does that make sense?
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
Tripodi stated, maybe I can help Sara and Suzanne out a little bit.
I think, when you "guys" were talking about this affordable
housing, Steve said "drawfing" the free market, you are almost
talking about it like it is a punishment sort of thing. I guess
I have to quote the Aspen Area Community Plan and say, housing is
not guaranteed for every single person that comes to live in this
community; and no where on this table, maybe, one or two people,
but my age group needs affordable housing more than, I have to say,
most of the people sitting at this table. Most of you probably
already have housing. I don't really want to say, if I got an
affordable housing unit, I would feel less then, because some "guy"
had come in and paid market value for a house in Aspen has a bigger
unit. I don't really care, quite frankly. We need the units here,
O.K., and just to get caught up with "he's got a bigger house", I
think the PUD concept works because you are going to tie the whole
thing in and make it all have some kind of harmony. I am not
guaranteed housing here, and Aspen providing affordable housing was
a great component, and it's great. I think if the numbers work
that a developer has to build a 12,000 sq. ft. house to give two
people a 2,000 sq. ft. house, that's what his prerogative is.
That' s the way that I feel . I understand he' s getting some bonuses
from using the overlay zone, and so forth, but I know people are
trying to make these projects work, and the numbers don't work, and
then, they walk away, and we lose a couple of affordable housing
units. That is the first thing.
Tripodi continued stating, the second thing is, to quote what I
think is an average size of Pitkin County isn't really pertinent,
because, you know, a "guy" who is coming in and buying a house in
Aspen, oftentimes he is not really looking at Basalt or Snowmass.
Houben stated, I didn't include Aspen.
Tripodi stated, that's what I am saying, I don't really think 3,200
sq. ft., or whatever we are throwing around here, is an average
size in Aspen. I know what the average size home is. I don't
think Aspen is really comparable with Snowmass and Basalt. I
would never buy a house in Aspen, but people are shopping here; I
would imagine it like about the 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 sq. ft. range,
I'm just guessing.
Lamont stated, no, no.
Tripodi asked, what is it?
Lamont answered, 4 to 5. We have one or two that are greater, that
are around 7,000.
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Tripodi stated, I think of Aspen as a mailbox address. It could
be in Pitkin County. If a "guy" was looking at Owl Creek or is
looking at Starwood.
Lamont stated, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about
something else. You are right.
Garton stated, Cindy, one reason I wanted to move on, I think you
can summarize a lot of this discussion to the Board and the County
Commissioners, but I know how they are going to work on this,
because it is how they have worked on it already. They are going
to come down and do what they want to do, and if they want to hear
our input, I don't think they care how the concensus feels.
Houben asked, are you, as a group, comfortable saying that this
discussion took place; there was a discussion of the ratio, there
was discussion about a cap, and the Board and the City Council
looking at it, I mean, are you comfortable making a specific
recommendation?
Krawzoff stated, I think that is inevitable, given to what I see
happening on the Board; it is going to remain divided, and talking
about it for another hour won't resolve that.
Garton stated, and they know, exactly, politically, how far they
can go on this.
Houben stated, the next thing I would like to bring up is something
that came about with discussions with Dave and Leslie, the other
day, and in terms of the percentage of affordable RO and free
market housing within the AH Zone District. The way we have it set
up is 30/30/40. 30o RO, 30o free market, and 400-. categories 1-4.
In the past, the zone distict has read that the bedroom count would
be a 60/40 split. We are proposing that the bedroom count now
track with the unit count of 30/30/40, in terms of bedrooms on
site. That is because, we feel that we should get more out of the
AH Zone District than we would normally get. It has always been
a bedroom count. Dave, is it easier for you to give the example,
60/40 bedroom count and an AH project?
Tolen stated, if you had ten units in the AH project in our code
right now, three of those units could be free market units, seven
would have to be affordable housing units of some kind. And, under
the code, right now, only four of the total bedrooms, would be free
market bedrooms, six of the bedrooms would have to be AH bedrooms.
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Sunny Vann stated, so, you could have three free market units, and
four free market bedrooms?
Tolen stated, ten is not a good number. Your ratio would have to
be 70/30, in terms of units, counting units; 60/40 for the free
market, counting bedrooms. So, most of the affordable housing zone
district projects that have been done have been right at that
ratio, or, actually, a little better.
Vann stated, would it not make more sense, .if you are going to
limit the size of the free market units, that, basically is the
economic engine that drives the freight for the rest of the
project. Would it not make more sense to establish a minimum
bedroom requirement for the employee component, if that is what
your concern is, and let the free market develop whatever product
is necessary. Because, you've got a bedroom or location and you
have the FAR, but you can't bring the product to market with that
bedroom, to sell at the kind of price that you need to cover the
project, you know, you have shot yourself in the foot. You don't
really care how many bedrooms are in the free market unit, up to
some point, I assume, as long as there is a cap on the size, but
you are concerned about establishing a minimum number of employee
bedrooms as part of the project.
There was discussion at random between Tolen and Vann regarding
limiting the size of the free market unit.
Caskey stated, you're saying that establish a minimum for the
category and the RO, so that you know that you are going to get
what you want back, otherwise, they will play the game of counting
video rooms, bedrooms, libraries, diningrooms, whatever; you didn't
say this, but maybe, that's where size manages that.
Vann stated, well, let's play two bedrooms and a den. The problem
is, it is an imperfect size. We are trying to tailor a program
that provides an incentive to the developer to move it away from
the Growth Management program, which no longer provides an
opportunity for development, and to use a substitute program, which
is the AH Program, to achieve the same results. In exchange for
getting this free market development potential, he now has to
provide some component for affordable housing. The numbers have
to work, there has to be a profit margin in order for them to do
it, then, you want to control the type and size of the four units
that come on line. For a variety of other reasons, you also want
to limit the size of the free market, be it the issue of
relationship of the free market to the employee or social concern
about the size of the homes, or whatever. If you rash it down too
tightly on the free market component of the project, we bring the
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
whole program, and the viability of the program, into question.
It just seems to me that if we are trying to encourage people
into the AH Program, we ought to provide as much flexibility as we
can, while at the same time making sure that our primary concerns
are addressed, and to me that means, the number of employee units
in relationship to the number of free market units, some kind of
minimum standard for the employee units in terms of size, bedrooms,
and restriction category, and apparently, some kind of a limitation
on the size of the free market residences. What I am not sure of,
is whether it is necessary to limit the number of bedrooms in the
free market residences. Because, you know, one thing we have found
out, is that every site is different and every project is
different, and this is one type of regulation that is not
universal. Everybody says, it would work if I just treat this, or
if I could just change that, and if you could provide that measure
of additional flexibility without jeapordizing the project, I think
that is a good addition.
Guthrie stated, I have a question and, maybe, it is for Cindy and
Leslie. You all have done a lot of studies on house size in
relation to impacts. We hear it constantly, that over a certain
size house, has a greater impact, over 3, 500 or 5, 000 sq. ft . , that
was kind of given to me, maybe, I'm wrong, but let's just say for
the purpose of this conversation that house size and impact are
related. I agree with Sunny, if we are going to stop the, I'm not
agreeing with Sunny, but it is a good point, but if we are going
to stop the size of the house, my question is, do we know that more
bedrooms; and my question within a question, is do we have the five
bedroom limit in the City that we do. Lamont stated, yes. Guthrie
stated, do we know that having more bedrooms has more impact? I
would think it would be better to have a cap on the house, with not
unlimited bedrooms, I don't know what the number is, but to
increase the bedroom number to give somebody, not just more
economic viability, but better planning, because you are going to
be able to have a smaller house and sell if for as much as you can
sell it for a bigger house. If I am trying to sell a house, and
there is seven bedrooms, and they are smaller than if I were to
have five bedrooms, I think you could get the same amount of money,
seeing what people are getting in town, I think that is true. So,
doesn't that make it better for everybody, if they get the money
for the smaller size house, and the money drives the affordable
housing availability?
Houben stated, I'm just not sure about those assumptions. I'm not
sure about whether or not those assumptions are following through,
and the whole reason I keep coming back to where Sunny.'s argument
falls down in my mind, is that we based our numbers on, in the
community plan, all have to go back to, as Sunny says, our
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AUGUST 1, 1995
accounting method. Our bedrooms are the accounting method for how
many people there can be in a project, be that free market or
affordable. That's been our accounting method and if we go astray
from that, then I think, we just have to do some more work.
Houben stated, number one, if somebody questions, will a free
market unit within the affordable housing zone district necessarily
be occupied by a part-time resident, we don't know. Or will it be
occupied by full-time residents that have full family and
everything that goes along with that, we don't know.
Houben stated, in the City, maybe, in the County, maybe not. In
the County I think we're going to see it a little bit more
equitable, in the situation betweeb the RO and the free market I
think it is going to be a lot closer. So, I have a hard time
abandoning the bedroom count as an issue.
Garton stated, me too. Sunny, I don't care whether you are a
banker or a member of ACRA, or a population person, you use bedroom
counts when you talk about homes and populations in the community.
They don't talk about square footage of homes.
Vann stated, I not suggesting that it is not a good measure.
Garton stated, it is a good question, I know what you are saying,
and I think it is something we ought to talk to the City Council
and the Commissioners about, whether they want the bedroom cap or
they want a house count.
Vann stated, it is simply, that we have taken away, basically, the
only game in town for the development community to develop housing
on the free market in the City and in the metro area, because of
the repressive nature of the revised growth management regulations.
Except for a few people, it's no longer a viable method for
developing either the property that they own or the property they
wish to purchase. There's a whole different set of discussions to
whether that's a good idea or a bad idea, but the truth of the
matter is that that mechanism's gone, and in its place we're
substituting a new game, if you will, from which we have limited
experience, although we have some, some projects that have gone
through, and I guess only time will tell as to whether or not it
would function, not only to allow a free market to develop, but
also, provide affordable housing. If it .doesn't work, it just sits
there; there's an argument that says, well, there's no growth, but
at the same time, we don't produce the housing that goes along with
it. So, I guess, we re -visit the issue in a year or eighteen
months, and see what happens.
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Garton stated, there's money to be made, there's probably not as
much money to be made.
Mooney stated, I think one of the things that I see about the
bedroom count as being important, is that we deal with mass and
scale because the City limits are so controlled. You "guys" have
more area, so, one of the problems that I feel is that, what is the
fine line between something that is a residence and something that
is a commercial application of a house? Where, in the County, if
you didn't have bedroom counts, you, I think, would be on the verge
allowing corporate interests to develop many hotels because they
can't get into the downtown core, they can't get the luxury
accommodations that they want in the number of square footage
houses that we allow in the west end anymore. This was our whole
idea between these "monster houses". People would take something
in the west end and it would be a party house, with all the living
areas on the upper floors, bedroom suites on the downstair floors,
they have cooks that would come in and they have a revolving
clientele of their executives coming to party in Aspen. So, the
bedroom count, I think, is important in the County because
.someone's going to take a 15,000 sq . f t . house and do ten bedrooms,
10 baths, and run a commercial operation. I think that's really
where the resort starts dominating the community and where
everybody loses track of what is growth, what is a normal
community's ability to deal with the impacts of having this resort
on its back. So, I don't know if I'm confusing the issue here, but
I think it is really important in the County that the bedroom
numbers be spelled out, and in the City, that the "monster home"
numbers be spelled out because people are always going to want to
come and run their own little commercial operation here and call
it a house.
Tolen stated, I was thinking of a different way of saying what
Sunny said, which is, that it sounds to me like we need, at least
one or the other. We need a bedroom limit or a size limit, without
one or the other we are going to have a problem in the mis-match
between what we get on the free market and what we get in terms of
affordable housing. It sounds like the City is in a pretty good
position in terms a house size limit, you might be able to let the
bedroom limit float, and that may be worth discussing. It sounds
as if the County was somewhat divided, the P&Z was somewhat divided
on the issue, whether it should be a cap or a ratio. What I would
suggest is that in that discussion you might look at the cap
period, or a ratio with a bedroom unit, and see how those two play
out.
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AUGUST 1, 1995
Garton stated, and see what kind of a hot potato it is for the
Commissioners, and then, I don't know what we do with the metro
area if it becomes a different animal once you cross the City
limits.
Lamont stated, if it becomes a different animal because we are
trying to better reflect the surrounding neighborhood and the
existing regulations within the County, on top of everything else,
then, I think that's O.K.
Houben stated, I just want to bring everybody back to their goal.
If it' s the bedrooms that get us there, or it' s the house size that
gets us there, then, I don't think any of us really care just so
long as it all fits into the community, and I think it is a good
distinction between the City and the County because the County has
not taken a step to funds regulations to the same extent that
the City has; I think Tim has a good point, that, maybe, bedrooms
are still better in County, but house size might be
Lamont stated, I'm not interested in creating a zone district that
is so difficult to figure out and wade through that individual
property owners feel stymied, and that the only person who could
come through is someone who plays the development game all the
time, and I think we need to be cognizant of what, plus what, plus
what, kills our AH zone. We don't want to stifle beyond any
ability for anybody to participate in the AH process. We need to
analyze, you know, we are talking bedroom count, floor area cap,
or what. So far, our cap on the free market units, being as high
as it is in the City, plus a 60/40 bedroom count split, plus the
70/30 unit mix, we have had several AH projects that have been able
to achieve that. We've never had an AH project that came in and
also achieved the ultimate in the density that resembled to AH.
Houben stated, but didn't they also say that we've had projects do
a little bit better than the 60/40 in terms the bedroom count to
get to that?
Vann stated, flexibility is a great thing, but too much flexibility
you can't get your client to go anywhere when what they want to do
is unrealistic. It has always been my experience that the
regulations that work best are those which provide some, if you
will, standard, be it a minimum standard or a maximum standard.
At least you could sit down and say, here's the basics, and then,
provide flexibility whether it is via special review or PUD
process, or whatever, to fine-tune the project to keep with the
site in question. But, to simply say, everything is set by PUD or
by special review, all the setbacks and everything, makes it
extremely difficult to work with a client and, invariably, what you
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get, is the implication of pushing the envelope on every side. You
are looking at it because in your heart you want to approve it
because it is producing what you want, but on the other hand, you
know it is pushing the envelope in terms of FAR and setbacks, and
so forth. So, to the extent that the standards can contain some
in your memorandum a maximum, as a point of departure, it still can
provide the flexibility to tune the project. I think it gets you
closer to where you want to go with the least amount of brain
damage.
Vickery stated, on Sunny's comments, I think that just in general
the structure of this Exhibit here, where you take out all the side
yard, 5 ft. side yard, all that "stuff", I find all that is very
useful, something to hang onto. The reason, for example, on
Langley's, that it didn't go through the PUD process, is because
it says PUD has to have a minimum of 27,000 ft. to go through the
PUD process, and I think opening up the AH in smaller sites with
a PUD option is good, but I think having some of these kind of very
clear, sort of perimeters and standards are also advantageous as
a starting point, so it is not a total free-for-all.
Lamont stated, but why can't you, for example, if you're going to
re -zone a parcel in the R6 Zone District where there is a minimum
side yard setback with a total side -yard setback, why can't that,
then, be your point of departure.
Vann stated, that's a good idea. The minimum standards or the
maximum standards shall be those of the underlying zone district.
Lamont stated, yeh, that's what we are saying, including, but not
limited to, neighborhood compatiability and adjacent zone district
regulations.
There was some discussion at random regarding Lamont's statements
and the comments were affirmative.
Mooney stated,'I think, philosophically, we are getting back to an
idea of someone coming in and saying, this is what my needs are,
how can I achieve this on this piece of property, and we have this,
plus this, equals this. We're not really saying to people, come
in and get a piece of property that you can maximize, and then, see
what you can do with it to get the most out of it in some kind of
speculative development. I think, philosophically, we're opening
up a formula that does have avenues for people to achieve
everything they really need, if they have those needs, because they
can identify them, we can balance it out, and we can, basically,
make it work. Economically, in the AH Zone, we can see how it can
work, there's enough flexibility to do it. But for someone to say,
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JOINT CITY & COUNTY
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you know, where' s the piece of property that I can get the most out
of by building the most, or by building the least on it, this is
confusing.
Houben stated, well, here's a twist. How about, you know how we
ususally go; there's a maximum, if we will give you a�certain
amount of whatever, and by special review you can increase that.
How about if we say, we give you a maximum, and by special review,
you can reduce that. So, by special review, if you really want to
go below the tracking with a 30/30/40 and you want to go back to
the old standards that we have in place now, the bedroom count, it
would have to be by special review, and somehow prove that, in
fact, these homes that are being built, are not going to be used
to the maximum as far as their bedroom count is concerned. It's
just an idea.
Garton stated, Cindy, I think what we have done now is covered a.
and b., right, and we better jump now to d. Resident Occupied
Units. I'm leaving it up the Commissioners and City Council, when
they are ready.
Lamont stated, I think what you all have said is that we want to
have some level of limitations on the free market homes. We may
want to consider a different limitation in the City versus the
County, and that we, staff, need to analyze this and make sure that
whatever formula we are putting out there, works, to a certain
degree, and isn't so onerous that one is not able to create a
project.
Garton stated, that's pretty compatiable for both, the way they
have been working, anyway, right?
Caskey stated, the thing that still hangs out there is the fact
that what Cindy said, is true, that we have based the AACP and a
lot of other things on the bedroom counts over the years. At one
time they were based on it for one assumption in the 1970s, later,
say in the AACP, we've been using it in another way because it
tells us in the population count, what are the needs of the
community to provide for that population. But, what Sunny is
pointing out again, is also true, and that is, it doesn't work,
because it doesn't tell us, it doesn't give us a true count, it
doesn't give us the worst case.
Garton stated, but, it is the best that we can go on. It is what
we use, it is what the census uses, it is what ACRA uses.
Caskey stated, I don't think it's the best we can go on, I just
don't know what the best is.
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Garton stated, it might be square footage within the City, then,
and we'll stay with the bedroom limitation in the County. I mean,
we can sit here and wonder how many people live in a house forever
and ever. The U. S. Census uses bedrooms. Krawzoff stated, we can
limit its sewage pipe. Garton stated, right. That's what the U.
S. Census does, and you know how bad the census is, we all know
that.
Caskey stated, that' s what I mean, and we' re using the same method.
I know it will come up again, and we've talked for years about
trying to come up with a better war. I think you all have come up
with a better way in the City; I don' t think we have in the County.
We use that bedroom count and our special review, and a lot of
years of experience on the Planning & Zoning Commission, to allow
a house that had, what was it, 26 bathrooms, and 15 bedrooms, is
that what it came up to? I mean, that's the kind of thing our
special review has given us in the past. That's really scary, and
that told us the worst case, probably, of the numbers of people in
the house. I just want it raised again, as an issue, and I know
the Commissioners will raise it again.
Houben stated, we're not going to deal with the resolution of that
here today. We'll have all the comments and we can definitely give
those before the Board and the Council. There will have to be
another debate, at another time, just so that they know that you
have passed it on to their table. That's all that I'm concerned
about, right now.
Vickery stated, can I ask one question? Do you have any indication
that the current ratio of bedrooms isn't working, for some reason?
Houben stated, no, that's not the point. (At this point, the tape
had to be changed and the comments, therefore, were not recorded.
The clerk apologizes.)
Mooney stated, let me make one last comment, I think it is an
interesting point about the sewage size. Where is there a method
that is going to allow us to know that we, basically, have a
balance.
Krawzoff stated, the reason I raised that is because, this goes
back to Snowmass. If you want to know how many people are in
Snowmass, you don't go to SRA, because their numbers are "screwed
up", you don't go to the Ski Company, for the same reason, but you
can find out how much sewage is processing and it is pretty
reliable.
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Houben stated, I want to point out that the reason RO works the way
it does right now in terms of the criteria. The Board of County
Commissioners and the City Council went through all the criteria
and really did fight really hard to come up with a program for RO,
and I hesitate to make any major changes in this just because they
gave it to us, we played with it for a long time, and we sent it
back to their table. If there is anything "glaring" here that you
may want to change, let's talk about it.
Tolen stated, we did find out one thing here, there's under
Category Housing, a regulation that says if you live on the unit,
you cannot own an approved unit elsewhere in the valley. That, we
thought, was supposed to be in here as well, but it is actually
not.
Garton stated, Item 7, page 8, second homes owned within the
Roaring Ford Valley may be under contract. What is that all about?
Tolen answered, that's a gesture towards that regulation, which is,
that if you own a second home, other than the RO unit, you've got
to sell it, but there' s no place in here where it really says that .
Houben stated, so, revise #7 to really say what we are doing.
Garton stated, in Item 5, on page 7, why did you feel the need to
put in there about the basement being developed by the developer
or by the homeowner, there is a difference there, and why is that
in there?
Tolen stated, a lot of that happened in discussion between the City
Council and the County Commissioners, who were talking about how
to construct this size. I don't know, I don't know how that got
in here.
Lamont stated, I think the idea was that if someone bought a parcel
as an RO, they were building a home, then, if they made the choice
to finish their basement, that was their choice to finish the
basement. But, we didn't want the developer finishing the basement
and "jacking" up the cost of the RO. So, the feeling was is that
some people needed a basement, some people did not need a basement,
and then, it was their choice, and they could easily finish the
basement themselves.
Guthrie stated, and kept the square footage the same. It would
seem like to me, if you're going to sell it unfinished, we give
somebody credit, or exempt for more, if it's unfinished and they
are going to finish it themselves. Maybe, I just don't understand
where they are going with it.
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Lamont stated, this number 5 was a heavy discussion.
Vickery asked, why did they restrict the size of the basement?
Tolen answered, the overall idea was to restrict the size of the
room in order to restrict its market value, and one of the believes
of the City Council and the BOCC was that that had to include some
restriction on it, the space in the basement, which is otherwise
often not counted. So, it is a number that they came up with.
Harper stated, this is a crazy one, but on number #6. Will there
be any special review, or something? For instance, say, my husband
died tomorrow, I haven't worked in Pitkin County in thirteen years,
does that mean I couldn't buy an RO residence?
Tolen answered, that's really between a staff decision and a
special review. We look at the qualification of the household, if
you have been part of a working household.
Caskey stated, I bet you, with the rest of the women in Aspen right
behind you, you would.
Krawzoff stated, Suzanne, it may not be strictly a feminist issue.
Garton stated, this is why there is a Housing Board for special
circumstances. We don't have to put that kind of thing into the
language.
Harper stated, I just wanted to make sure that there is something
within the perimeters of the Housing Board.
Tolen stated, let me clear this, right now, it is not subject to
special review, you asked that it be subject to special review, it
is not. So, right now, the only thing we could do is make a staff
judgement call on that, you meet this guideline, or you don't meet
the guideline. Then, that would be subject to other people saying,
well, I need it too, even though they may not. So, I would prefer
to have it subject to special review, I prefer to have the Housing
Board or a committee look at it and say, in this case, it's O.K.
Right now, we don't have it.
Houben stated, so, you're saying, that what you would like to do
is to have the recommendation from P&Z go to the Board and Council,
saying #6 is subject to discussion.
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Krawzoff stated, I would go futher than that and suggest that #8
be classified that way, as well. If you take, for example, some
of the local professionals, this means, if they lived in the
valley, they may have lived here for twenty years, but if they took
a contract in the last three years that generated significant
income for them; in Eagle County, there's an example.
Guthrie stated, you pay your taxes here, that qualifies you.
Krawzoff stated, I think you are more interested in where they
spent the money, than where they earned it, frankly, but I think
this is going to cover 950 of your cases, but the special review,
in those cases, would allow for those people who have unique
circumstances. If they are an artist and they sold their work out
of state, it all went to New York, but they have been living here.
I don't think you want to say that that person is not eligible.
Guthrie stated, I'm reading it a whole lot differently, if I sell
my services in California, but I'm paying Colorado State Income
Tax, I qualify.
Krawzoff stated, it earns and sold are different. The trouble I
have with special review is exactly what we are going through,
right now. I have a different interpretation of "earned",
primarily, in Pitkin County. You can't tell me it's been black and
white in the last few years, it's been anything but. So, the
trouble with special review is it's up to him one day, and up to
her the next. And, that's where we are going to get into trouble.
Houben stated, the idea behind a guideline on affordable housing
not only as it necessarily relates to Pitkin County, but if you
look at major cities, how they design it, it's because what
happened, if people like policemen, firemen, were working for the
city government, and so forth, could not get housing in the area
that they worked in. What you are talking about here, is the same
thing; you want to be giving housing to people that are working in
the area, not necessarily people who want to live in the area,
can't afford it, and they are going out and selling their wares
somewhere else.
Krawzoff stated, not exactly, we are also trying to preserve the
cultural diversity that we have here.
Caskey stated, but you know, there are cases where, it seems to me
at one point there was someone on the City Board who was talking
.about the fact that he was involved significantly. (Referring to
Roger Hunt.) In another state, and it is very clear, that Roger
has been extremely committed to this community, in fact, because
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of that discussion that they started to add something about
community volunteer hours, or that sort of thing, as a
qualification. There's another case of a woman, a good friend of
mine, who has lived here for sixteen years, who has worked as a ski
instructor, who has owned a flower business, who has been a
caretaker in one of the really big homes here, who now is a free
lance photographer, and who earns a major part of her income
working with the Federal Emergency Management Agency or
Administration, or whatever it is called. She has been here for
the major part of the sixteen years, but she works with disaster
work all over the country. So, while her paycheck is mailed from
the Denver office, she can't say that she earned it in Pitkin
County, but this is home to her, and she is one of the kinds of
characters that all of us would want to have here.
Tripodi stated, I don't understand how that is any different than
a second home owner who considers Aspen his home, and is only here
four months a year. It is just because this person is wealthy and
this person isn't.
Caskey stated, no, it's not, because she has lived here for sixteen
years.
There was discussion at random and Tripodi added, I doesn't matter
to me, anyway, but I know that there are at least three or four
"guys" that are in my age group, definitely not in my income
bracket, but they are here, maybe, a total of two or three months;
they consider Aspen their primary home, and they travel all over
the country; they get on planes, I' d say, 300 days a year, and they
consider Aspen their home. Now, are those "guys" considered in the
RO? Well, according to this, well, if we change it, yes, they are,
and they are never here and they are no different from your friend.
There's your friend and then, there's people that I know that, this
is their home, and this is where they pay their bills, but they are
not here.
Tygre stated, I think one of the purposes of having this special
review is to have people other than P&Z, make these decisions. I
am not just joking about that; the people who are on the Housing
Board will find that they are going to have to establish a certain
set of guidelines, whether it takes the form of the menu, or
optional choices, or whatever. I think they will have to do that
just because they will be challenged by people, and they are going
to have to come up some kind of sets on ways to interpret this. I
think that we can recommend that 6 & 7, or 7 & 8, rather,
whichever, maybe all three of them, can be subject to special
review by the Housing Authority and we can leave it up to the
Housing Authority to establish criteria that will enable them to
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make this decision and the criteria should be published way up
front, so you don't have this, sort of after the fact, challenge,
and let them do their job.
Garton stated, I feel, David, something that was recommended in
here by staff, is what used to happen, was that people had to pre -
qualify before there's ever a lottery, because I think what is
happening to all of you is there's lottery, and then, their
qualifications are checked.
Guthrie stated, a comment and a question. The way I understood one
can establish a primary residence in this stated, you have to live,
pasically, in the spot for 7 months. I disagree. All lots/units
must be owned by an individual, so I can't live in sin and own one
of these lots, is that what I am interpreting?
Tolen answered, no. You can't own a corporation or a partnership.
Guthrie stated, that's not what it is reading to me. All
lots/units must be owned by an individual, that doesn't say, all
lots/units can't be owned by a corporation. I understood the
concept, but I wanted to clarify.
Mooney stated, if these are adopted, does that retro-fit all the
existing ROs that are in the County?
Tolen answered, no. For instance, the Airport Business Center has
regulations that would be different than this, and is, actually,
more general and less restrictive. The same as Smuggler Mobile
Home Park, those regulations would be less restrictive. The most
recently approved RO units at Williams Ranch, are more restrictive
than this.
Guthrie asked, can you clarify for me about, I ' m hearing people say
things about leaves of absence, these RO unit and AH units, I don't
know the right answer. Can people travel, can they take time off,
can they rent it, etc?
Tolen answered, these would fall under the normal housing
guidelines and the deed restrictions which say, you can leave your
unit for a specified period of time, that's basically in there, if
you demonstrate legitimate reasons for leaving and a clear
intention to return. So, what we would say, if you go on
sabbatical for a year, and you are a teacher or you are traveling
for a year, under a specific contract, you are contracted to come
back, and intend to come back, the Housing Board will grant a leave
of absence. If you want to leave to go to New York, to see how
much you like living in New York, and want to live in New York for
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a year, but you want to be able to come back, we won't grant that
leave of absence.
Guthrie stated, so, the general Housing Authority guidelines
supercede.
Tolen stated, they will cover that.
Vickery stated, I just have a question for Dave. It talks a little
bit about Category 5. What would differentiate Category 5 from an
RO?
Tolen answered, during the discussion, it came down to some people
being comfortable with what is presented here as an RO unit, and
some people wanting a more restrictive RO unit, which had an
initial price cap, and that was being called Category 5. Since
that discussion had happened, we were asked, do we actually need
a Category 5, as well as the RO? In going back and looking at it,
it is such a very small slice of the economic distribution here,
that the only thing that would make sense is to slightly increase
the one that's on Category 4 and not create a whole new category
to cover 1 or 20 of the population. .
Vickery asked, has there been any talk about just having a resident
free market category?
Tolen answered, it did happen.
Garton stated, now then, let's move to Should Required Category
Units in the AH Zone be "Developer's Choice.", or sold through the
Housing Office Lottery and Priority System, that's page 10.
Tolen stated, I want to present the case for this, for Developer's
Choice, and this is from the Housing Board. The most compelling
reason to permit this, is to encourage local people to become
involved in assisting and solving our housing problems, which in
the past couple of years, and in the future, we think it is going
to be a bigger part of the AH Zone District. Whether that's John
McBride, who owns a piece of land and who has the ability to do
a development project, but really has some other objectives in
mind, serving long-time locals that he's familiar with, or the
group of people who get together. When we discussed it seemed that
Council was somewhat more comfortable with Developer's Choice, but
AACP wanted at least some limit on it, it knew that the reason for
it was going to be that that was actually going to happen, that
there was a group of people who were basically self-selected or
coming into it for more than simply profit, and that led us to the
discussion that Developer's Choice could be approved by special
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AUGUST 1, 1995
review by the Board of County Commissioners or it was showns that
it was the intention of the developers of the project, as long-
term community members, become in solving the problems.
Houben stated, my sense of that is, that staff didn't have a
problem with Developer's Choice if Developer's Choice moved to have
the same requirements for anyone else coming into it. If
Developer's included an occupancy requirement, as well as included
the requirement that someone lived here the standard amount of
years before being able to get in, I think that everybody would be
happy with Developer's Choice, if the same requirements were chosen
across the board. The only problem is that the way Developer's
Choice has been presented to us, was that, number one, occupancy
requirements are waived for Developer's Choice and length of stay
in the community was waived, and I think that defeats the purpose
of supplying affordable housing in the beginning. The developers
have the choice, you know, that's fine as far as I'm concerned, if
they meet the standards.
Tolen stated., one thought that comes to me in terms of that is,
having dealt during the last four years with the tuitions of
priority, we had to defend giving priority for maximum occupancy
and dependent priorities, and that was really controversial during
the last year. We have also had to defend the priority for the
people who have been here four years or longer. At one level,
those are in conflict with the more you serve long-term locals, the
less you are going to be able to serve maximum occupancy, because
native long-term locals are not being served because of the
occupancy requirements. Maybe, what I would suggest is that the
developers have to meet one or the other of those, either they
serve long-term locals; like Williams Ranch did, they came in and
said we want to build three -bedroom houses for people who have
lived here for twenty years, but might not have kids.
Lamont stated, the only other alternative that we also discussed
was that having a percentage of the units be Developer's Choice
with no limits on that. Therefore, if someone pulled an architect
onto the team, and the architect knew that they were going to give
a unit out of that, that was a way to further the project. I think
cohousing is a pretty unique project, in that, it was there from
the very beginning that there is a select group of people working
on the project, and therefore, they get priority. It was pretty
obvious who was working on that project.
Tyge stated, I think Cindy's point is really well taken. The
purpose of what we are doing is to provide housing for residents,
and I agree that we do have to try to make this as attractive as
possible to developers, but if we are going to wind up with people
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who don't fulfill the requirements, who are we building this
housing for? I think we have to keep the priority as the number
one thing. I don't think it would be all that objectionable to a
long-term local to have people who qualified. I would think
certainly, a person like John McBride, would be just as happy to
have people that he. didn't necessarily know personally, but who
had been in the community for a long time and had worked here. I
don't think necessarily that should necessarily dissuade a long-
term local from getting into this kind of a project.
Tolen stated, if we put both priorities in place, for John
McBride's project; he's proposing a loss. Our priority would be
to people who have lived here four years or longer, who have at
least one dependent in their household, and he would be required
to follow that priority. Now, his intention probably is, and is,
as he has expressed it, to serve long-term locals, yes, but to
provide lots to a mix of people, including families, couples, and
single people, who might build very small houses, very
economically. So, I want to be sure that we are comfortable with
what he's talking about given the set of regulations that we are
talking about.
Tripodi stated, I don't know about David, but I don't have any
dependents, and so, there's been a huge lot of houses that have
been put on the market that I can't qualify for.
Tolen stated, one of the chief things that we said in proposing
that requirement to the community; we had a number of community
meetings where we said, we really think we need a dependent
priority for units that are publicly subsidized that are part of
mitigation. We said, but your relief, you singles, and couples and
long-term locals who don't have children, but would like to get a
single-family home, your relief from that is getting involved in
private sector developments. So, we are concerned about taking
that relief away from them and still being able to defend that
dependent priority.
Garton stated, and I also know that John would like to be able to
see people, a single person, buy a starter home. The idea he is
going to get married and have a family, or she.
Tolen stated, with our current priorities, if you require
developers to follow them, he wouldn't be able to do that.
Caskey stated, I just got
are going to come up with a
a dependent or you promise
housing?
29
confused there, are you saying that we
priority that says that unless you have
to in the future, that you can't get
JOINT CITY & COUNTY
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Tolen stated, right now, if we are marketing a three -bedroom unit,
and a family with a child bids on that unit, they get priority over
the couple or a single person. That doesn' t mean you can' t get it,
I mean, Michael Kensley got a house in a subdivision because nobody
else would bid on it, but as in the case of Juanstreet, for 5
units, we had 52 bids from families with children, they get the
first shot at it. Right now, that applies to publicly subsidized
units, but it doesn't, right now, apply to these private AH
projects.
Caskey stated, but if we are trying to come up with balanced
community, you ought to be able to be a man who is widowed, and has
had a vasectomy, a woman who is menopausal, you ought to be able
to be 75 years old, a man who has chosen to be single.
Garton stated, but Suzanne, within the public sector, the list is
so long, they have to have the bedrooms filled up. I mean, I would
love to have a two -bedroom, but I can't.
Caskey stated, so, don't go build a house that has three -bedrooms.
Garton stated, but I might be able through a developer, if we are
going to allow this option, that's what David is saying, maybe, we
should ease up a little, and with the private development of
affordable housing, allow me to move out of the black hole of
public housing, and go for a lot, and I think you owe that to the
taxpayer for publicly subsidized, that you've got to have the most
people in there.
Tygre stated, but I think that somebody's been talking about the
fact that a lot of these may be challenged because, theoretically,
you want maximum occupancy because you want maximum occupancy given
to workers in the community, which is not true of children, and so
you are leaving yourself open to challenges on those priorities.
I have come to agree with you, that perhaps, one or the other, will
work better for a private developer, because I think, as more and
more people are competing for fewer and fewer units, you are going
to start seeing challenges to some of the priorities until, or
unless, you can provide some kind of indication, the community
voted, and everybody said, this should be the priority. I think
we need to be able to be more flexible, so I would go along with
your proposal.
Houben stated, you know what, I have been thinking about the case,
with one or the other, I know a "guy" in town who bought a business
and brought all his friends out here to work in the business, so,
he built five one -bedroom units, so he could then meet the
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applicancy requirements, but bring in people that never lived here,
it's one of those things, so, I'm almost in favor more of just
saying, it's the amount of time spent in the community.
Harper stated, I think the time or residency has to remain a
requirement, regardless.
Guthrie stated, I argued for months because I think four years, you
can be blind drunk for four years in this town, and I have asked
the Housing Authority time and time again to make it ten years.
Tolen stated, it went to the Council and to BOCC and they said it' s
been somewhere between four and six years, pretty much, forever,
and we could make it longer, but at the point where we start making
it longer, we are really starting to make judgement calls about
whether four years was long enough or not, and whether ten years
was long enough.
Guthrie stated, my point is though, that four years is not even an
onerous requirement, that's just given, because somebody can
portray their commitment to this town in one second, but that' s the
reality, there just too many people that move here. Four years is
what you "guys" have decided, that's got to stay, but I really
think in order to serve people, to give somebody an incentive to
build anything, I'm not going to just provide housing, I want to
provide housing for people that I want to provide housing for, and
so, I'll give a little on that, and then, I want to build or sell
a single person a three -bedroom, if I so choose.
Krawzoff stated, wait a minute, isn't the incentive the free market
unit that you are building, as well.
Guthrie stated, well, in that particular case, there are no free
market units, I don't know about that.
Tolen stated, there are two kinds of AH projects; one is purely a
speculative project, and those "guys" don't enter into this
discussion, and the second type of AH project are those that are
undertaken by long-term members of the community who want to get
involved in solving housing issues, and they are not motivated by
profit, developers are purely motivated by profit, they are
motivated by desire to do something in the community that solves
their problem and the problem that their friends have. That's the
kind of AH project that we are talking about here.
Houben stated, in that scenerio the "guy" that wants to help the
community, or sees his friend living downvalley, or sees the
relation of the community, that person probably has at least a four
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year commitment in this community.
Mooney stated, I generally think the resident requirement, even if
you give them a choice, whether or not they want to do it, is
important, but I think it brings up another point. We, just a
little while ago, heard a preliminary idea about the City can do
a subsidized AH project, and one of the examples that they gave was
that they needed a certain person, who is skilled personnel, who
could work on high tension wires, and they didn't have anyone in
the City who could qualify for that. They had to go to Boulder and
hire somebody because of their career qualifications and bring them
here. I can see how that would work, so, maybe, there's a way to
have a certain ability to have a rental unit for a certain amount
of time for someone who doesn't qualify for the residence time
frame, but does have some way to show a career orientation to the
community. They can rent some place for a short amount of time to
see if they are going to live here and then, they have to buy.
Instead of selling some unit to somebody whom the City was
recruiting to come here to do a special job.
Krawzoff stated, I'm very concerned about just importing
specialists, because I hear that in terms of, well, now we don't
have enough teachers, so now we're going to do it straight, you've
got to be a teacher, and now you've got to be a fireman.
Lamont stated, I think the point that David is making,, is if an
employer comes to us and says, I want to build a 1000 deed
restricted project for my employees, we would probably want to be
in a position to allow them to do that, even though their employees
don't meet our residency priorities.
Krawzoff stated, I still don't understand why, because it is hard
for me to fathom almost any job qualification, that you could not
either find someone that was local or train them, rather than
importing people.
Lamont stated, someone who is very single came in to us and said,
I want to build housing for my employees, and it is not going to
cost the City a dime, and he built three units that were fully deed
retracted units, they weren't even RO units, they were fully deed
restricted units, and we gave him the ability to put his employees
in there. If he didn't have enough employees to fill the units,
then, he would have had to go to the pool.
Caskey asked, what happens if he doesn't like one of those "guys"
next week, and he fires him, what happens to that person' s housing?
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Tolen stated, well, in Barry's case, he has the first rate of
refusal on the unit, and when they sell the unit, he gets to buy
it back.
Caskey asked, they get to stay in the unit, as long as they can
take it?
Lamont stated, it is the same thing through growth management when
you require someone to build an employee unit through growth
management; they have the ability to put their employees in that
unit first. If they don't have employees who want the unit, or all
their employees have units, then, they just can't let the unit sit
vacant, they can't rent it as a free market unit, they have to go
through the Housing.
Houben stated, but don't you think it is true that the employees,
people who are employees in the community, to be housed, we always
subsidize in a lot of ways, we are giving them additional density
in the community and we are giving them, in some cases, water tap
fees.
Tolen stated, the City is going to hire somebody to' work on high
tension lines, one way or another, and that person is going to have
an impact on the Housing. I think we would prefer for the City to
say, we will take care of it, in fact, by an affordable unit for
him.
Guthrie stated, David, I think the point that George is making, and
which I agree with, is that we don't want to create a demand or
availability for somebody to move up here from Arvada, and then,
just kind of compound, and in George's words, exasperate, the
problem that we have. We don't have enough space here, so, we
can't create easy, free housing. I think the City ought to train
one of their linemen to do high tension line work.
Garton stated, I'm not going to take anymore comments, because it
is 6 : 00 p.m., but we haven't finished this, I know. We didn't talk
about AH Standards on two or more non-contiguous lots.
Houben stated, about the only thing that is outstanding for us, to
be able to pass AH and RO onto the Board, we can deal with Transfer
of Rural/Remote Zone District at another time. But as far as
having Non -Contiguous Parcels for the AH program, I think we really
ought to try to extend for five minutes.
Garton stated, I think, Cindy, what we can move on is to, we can
move the text, can't we move that along, the City's AH code
amendments.
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PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS AUGUST 1, 1995
Houben stated, the AH code amendments, the question is, whether or
not they should be allowed to have this non-contiguous built into
it. The question is whether or not a developer who wants to come
along, and this is an example; there is a piece of property in the
east end, and there's a piece of property in the west end, they
want to do the same amount of housing that we are asking for, but
maybe the affordable on the east end and the free market in the
west end. Do we agree with allowing that to occur?- There are
pluses and minuses.
Garton stated, I don't think it is a five minute discussion. Have
you all read that, and are you familiar with the issue?
Tolen stated, first of all, I think it is limited to the City, I
can't think of a situation in the County or metro where this is an
issue. It is an issue on lots of around 15,000 sq. ft. or smaller,
where there's not really incentive to do an AH project, because
what you can already get, which is one or two free market units,
is about what you can get with an AH project. For example, the
Bass property in East Hopkins, 15,000 sq. ft., went through a lot
split and they are doing a single-family home and a duplex. A
comparable AH project would then have to have at least, to be more
economical to them, four free market units and have the 700
affordable units. Well, there's no way that they are going to put
down on a site like that, but they might take two similar sites,
and develop an AH mix. So, the only thing we are talking about is,
you know, finding a way to encourage them on those particular lots.
Houben stated, if we could narrow it down to that in the
regulation, maybe, people could live with that, if we narrowed it
down to you can agree that non-contiguous parcels development is
O.K. in the case of lot center, 15,000 sq. ft., and smaller.
Garton stated, concensus, especially the City? How does this sound?
Tygre stated, if everybody else feels differently, then, it doesn't
matter what I think. You just want to get an idea of whether you
can pass this along or not.
Mooney stated, initially, I think it is O.K., but I really think
it has to be more specific than that.
Hunt stated, more discussion, but I agree with Tim.
Krawzoff stated, Sara, I ask to reinforce what you were saying, it
is already 6:10 p.m., and it will take us another ten minutes to
reconvene.
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JOINT CITY & COUNTY
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSIONS
UGUST 1, 1995
Lamont stated, next Tuesday, there's not a lot on your agenda,
we'll discuss this again.
*R-r'KTTTMTn n
MOTION
Buettow moved to approve the minutes of the City Planning & Zoning
Commission for July 11, and July 18, 1995 as written. Hunt
seconded. Vote was unanimous in favor, motion carried.
Meeting adjourned at 6:15 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Sharon M. Carrillo, Deputy City Clerk
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