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RECORD OF PROCEEDIIIlGS
REGULAR MEETIIIlG PLANRIIIlG MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
Chairman Welton Anderson called the meeting to order at 5:00 pm
with Commissioners Roger Hunt, Ramona Markalunas, Jasmine Tygre,
Mari Peyton, Al Blomquist, David White, and Jim Colombo present.
COMMISSIONERS' COMMEIl'.rS
Hunt asked if recertification had been obtained from the energy
entities that the City has sufficient electrical capacity to add
new growth without brownouts. Richman replied an answer had not
yet been obtained.
Peyton said she would still like to have the City Attorney come
and talk to the Commission, as a whole, about legal responsibilities
and conflicts of interest.
MIlII1JTBS
November 26. 1985: Tygre moved to approve the minutes of November
26, 19851 Peyton seconded. All in favor1 motion carried.
PUBLIC BEARING
LI~E NELL GNP SCORING SESSION
Alan Richman, Planning Director, discussed the scheduling of
addressing the many items involved in this application. Tonight's
meeting is for GMP scoring issues only. Richman said this was
the first time a project had come before the Commission other
than at the conceptual level to be reviewed for growth management,
therefore, the application was looked at differently. That is
not to say different standards were applied in the scoring
process. When you have an application of this magnitude and an
application which has proceeded to this detail level of its
development it is impossible for it to be reviewed with one eye
closed. It is for the Commission to make a determination as to
whether they think the level of commitment in certain areas is
adequate at this point and if the commitments made by the applicant
can in fact be accomplished.
Richman reviewed the Planning Office's proposed scoring of the
project. There were referral comments on water and sewer concluding
in both areas that the applicant was upgrading the public water and
sewer system to the point that it is a general benef i t to the
neighborhood. The recommendation is for maximum points.
In the area of storm drainage the applicant had studied the issue
from the standpoint of the site as well as the surrounding area and
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGULAR MEETING PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
had recognized a need to handle off-site drainage as well as
on-site drainage, which is desirable for the project and the
commun i ty at large. There were 2 questions about the drainage
design. The applicant is committed to installing storm drainage
facilities on the site, for the site and the tributary drainage
but provided no indication as to where on the site that would
occur. The Planning Office has been unable to determine that in
fact the applicants commitment could be realized on the site,
feeling unable to give them a maximum rating as a result of that
level of discomfort. After talking to the applicant it was
determined this was not a proposal to do on grade drainage but to
do some subgrade detention facilities, routing it to the City's
storm sewer system. Richman said that gave him a conceptual
feeling that the site could handle the storm drainage but that
the impact would be on the City sewer system. Richman said he
felt a score of 1 was justifiable on that basis.
Richman said in terms of fire the proposal is to add 2 fire
hydrants to the neighborhood. They do improve service to neighb-
oring properties. Jay Hammond's (City Engineer) opinion was that
without the hydrants the project would not work. Richman said Jim
Wilson, Fire Inspector, commented that fire access would not be
available to all sides of the building, therefore, needing to be
sprinkled, which it will be. Richman said the Planning Office
was rating this a 1 1/2.
Richman said there were no improvements proposed to the road
network and based on the consultants analysis the roads are
adequate. Richman said there were several potential problems
with the roads but did not downgrade the project as a result
because there was no basis to say the roads are inadequate in the
area. Richman said Jay Hammond had expressed concern about the
traffic generation figures being used by the consultant. Richman
also thought the Commission should be aware that there had been
no analysis or recognition of the impact of any on mountain
activities yet the new lift is a part of this overall project.
He thought there was a clear relationship between the increased
capacity on the mountain, increased traffic on the streets, as
well as the increased attractiveness of Little Nell when the new
lift is placed on the site.
A color rendering of the architectural design was reviewed.
Richman thought it demonstrated successfully that there were a
number of techniques being employed in the design that would tend
to reduce the perceived mass and height of the building as
opposed to the neighboring buildings which are of the flat
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGm.ll.R MEE'l'ING PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
square variety. Richman thought this indicated a successful
effort at trying to reduce the perceived mass of the building.
Richman said the reason for the downgrade in this category was the
applicants shadow study which indicates that Durant w ill be in
the shade for most of the winter and Spring St. will be shaded in
the afternoon by the building. This category was rated at 1 1/2
by the Planning Office.
Richman said in terms of site design he had real problems with
the way the project had proceeded. The mall on both Dean and
Hunter is a significant improvement to the area and has a lot to
do with the overall project in terms of better access to the site
for skiers. As indicated by the applicant zone 2, the area by
the Tippler and in back of the North of Nell building, will not be
fully paid for by the applicant. Richman said he did not think the
neighborhood impacts were being handled in that aspect.
Additionally, there was no indication as to who would maintain the
mall areas, which might have a significant public caucus associated
with it. Richman said his main site design problem was in terms
of the skier drop off area. He thought it created a number of
problems for the community. In terms of open space there really
is none along Durant St. Richman's major problem with the
project design was the way the traffic flows. There is a potential
serious conflict with cars coming out of the drop off area and in
to the porte-cochere area, along with a dangerous intersection.
Additionally, with an island placed in the city right-of-way
people will park against the island turning Durant St. in to
essentially one lane. There will at least be loss of public
parking on Durant st. which is undesirable. The Planning Office's
recommended score was 1.
In terms of energy conservation measures Richman said this was
state of the art techniques and an exceptional gesture on the
part of the applicant. Richman said he thought this rated an
outstanding design score of 3.
Richman said from one standpoint there had been several improvements
in terms of parking and circulation. A drop-off/service area
within the mall, presented at the conceptual level, has been
eliminated which Richman thought was a major benefit. Richman
also thought moving the maintenance function from the base area
would have major benefits to the community both visually and from
a circulation standpoint. Richman said a question had been
raised by members of the public about the design by the Tippler
and Tipple Inn, essentially removing their service/delivery area
and some of the parking. The applicant has submitted a letter to
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
RBGm.ll.R MEE'l'ING PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
the Planning Office indicating that this property was not under
their control and that the design should not be considered by the
Commission as a definitive design.
Richman said he thought the applicant had retained the crucial
view of the site from Hunter St. and there were no view plane
impacts from designated public locations. The standard score was
recommended.
In terms of amenities Richman said both the
restaurant areas were essentially standard.
rated both of these areas standard.
conference areas and
The Planning Office
Richman thought there were exceptional amenities for the community
at large in terms of recreational facilities, adding the facilities
were standard for the lodge itself. The Planning Office gave
this area a score of 3.
The housing is by formula reSUlting in 9 points being awarded for
housing 36% of the employees and 5 points awarded for housing those
employees in converted units.
The Planning Office's recommended score of the project was 57 points
which is above the threshold of 54 points.
Peter Forsch applicant, said they had addressed all 25 conditions
of approval and thought the submission was considerably improved.
Mr. Forsch said there were 3 areas he would like to draw attention
to. One being the delivery service area, being moved out of the
Dean St. area over to Spring St. The service area has been both
enlarged and moved further in to the building, lessening the
impact to the base area. Secondly, the parking had been increased
significantly, up to 118 spaces, which their consultant have said
is more than the proj ected need yet represents the total square
footage available. Thirdly, the entire building has been moved
back 10 feet from Durant St. in order to accommodate a number of
concerns dealing with open space, parking and circulation,
shadows, and perceived building mass. The building is now 36
feet away from the existing curb line.
Gideon Kaufman, applicant's attorney, commented that in Alan
Richman's memorandum to the Commission regarding the scoring of
this application Mr. Richman says "in the rating of this project
we used a slightly different standard than would otherwise be the
case". Mr. Kaufman wanted to point out that GMP scoring needs to
be done in a way that treats all applicants the same regardless
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGm.AR MEETING PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
of their underlining zoning. The GMP submission requirements can
not be treated differently on scoring. This particular application
is much more detailed than any other GMP application. The
scoring criteria that exists in the code for GMP does not take
in to account the conceptual or the detailed SPA aspects of this
application, which take place at another time. The SPA was never
intended to change the way a GMP application is scored. Richman
reiterated that everything that was before the Commission, as it
applies to the criteria of growth management, should be applied to
the criteria of growth management.
Bill Kane, representing applicant, submitted a document to the
Commissioners that represented the applicants suggestions for
the scor ing of the proj ect. Mr. Kane said in the storm drainage
area they were scored 1 point and are requesting 2 points.
Because of the un ique position of the site the storm drainage
investigation included lands from Durant St. essentially up to
the head waters of Vallejo Gulch. In the investigation the first
problem area uncovered was some unclearity about the flow from
Vallejo Gulch. The best mapping available for this review was a
10 foot contour map prepared for the Aspen Mountain plan. We
were informed that the investigators did not feel that 10 foot
intervals were sufficient to allow them to accurately characterize
the flows and direction of the flows. We proceeded with a
contract to produce new mapping at 2 foot intervals to allow the
investigators to precisely calculate the drainage characteristics
to get a feel for what kind of storm flows would be experienced
at Little Nell given a 100 year storm event. The 2 foot interval
contour mapping project was interrupted by an early snow and ground
control work was not completed and deferred until the summer of
1986. The Engineering fi rm advi sed the applicant that in order
to proceed with the application the only possibility was to
proceed with a worst case scenario, meaning we had to proceed on
the assumption that 100% of the 100 year storm event from Vallejo
Gulch would be transmitted down the Little Nell slope.
The applicant proceeded with the worst case scenario, approaching
the project with the idea of trying to understand what the
absolute worst case would be in terms of flows experienced at
this building site from a 100 year storm event. Mr. Kane outlined
on a map the area and drainage patterns. The analysis looked at
100% of the worst case scenario reaching the Little Nell area of
the mountain. Hopefully when better mapping is obtained it will
show that some of this drainage will be diverted to other areas.
The calculations were used to arrive at a retention facility
sizing of 33,000 cubic feet. The applicant has said in their
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RECORD OF PROCEEDIIIlGS
REGULAR MEETING PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSIOII JANUARY 21. 1986
application that they will build a 33,000 cubic foot facility
with an outlet drain to tie in to the City's storm water system.
Mr. Kane said they feel they have done all that is required in
conducting a thorough analysis, understanding the 100 year storm
event, accepted the worst case scenario, and have in a conceptual
way designed a retention facility to detain the waters and release
them into the storm drainage system in a way that would not have
a negative impact. Mr. Kane said in Mr. Richman's memorandum it
states that the project was not retaining 100% of storm water on
si te. Mr. Kane did not feel it was a reasonable request for the
project to try to retain on this property 100% of the storm drain
requirement deriving from Aspen Mountain. Mr. Kane thought they
were being degraded because they were using the City's storm
drain system but that is the purpose of the storm drain system.
Blomquist asked if when doing the resloping of the base area would
the dirt move the base up higher and would it in any way tend to
divert Vallejo Gulch waters even less. Mr. Kane said one of the
comments in the analysis of the site was that too great a width
was shown, which would interrupt some historic drainage patterns
to the east, essentially worsening our case of diverting water
on to the Little Nell slope. A more significant problem was
the impossibility for credit at the bottom and fill material
at the top of the slope had been reduced because there were
reservations about the stability of fill material on the slope.
Essentially when the new topographic map is obtained we will go
back and redo the grading plan with more precision. What is
shown in this presentation is a grading plan that represents the
worst case conditions. Mr. Forsch said they do not intend to
disrupt the historic flow out of Vallejo Gulch and at this point
have assumed all of the water will come down Little Nell, which
will probably not be the case but, an assumption they are willing
to make at this point. Mr. Kane asked the Commission to keep in
mind that they were analyzing a site that goes well beyond the
property that will be immediately involved, have assumed the
worst case scenario, have retained the best storm drainage
engineers available, and are committing to a 33,000 cubic foot
detention facility. Mr. Kane felt this area was worthy of 2
points rather than the suggested 1 point.
Regarding the Fire Department, Mr. Kane said they proposed an
extension of a 6 inch water line attached to a fire hydrant at
Spring St., which would be a newly constructed line. In Jim
Markalunas's (Water Department) letter to Alan Richman he suggested
that line be a 12 inch line. Mr. Kane said they supplied it as
a 6 inch line because that was how they were advised by the
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGULAR MEETING PLANRING MID ZOIIING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
Volunteer Fire Department. They would gladly amend the application
to accommodate a 12 inch line. Mr. Richman said the 12 inch line
was highly desired by the Water Department and if the applicant
makes that commitment the score should reflect the change,
amending the score to 2 points.
In terms of architectural design Mr. Kane said the Planning
Office had criticized the application based on 3 points: U the
schematic level of the drawings submitted, '2 the shading the
building would create on Durant St., and .3 the shading of Spring
St.. Mr. Kane referred to drawings in their submission (page 25)
showing shading created at 9am, 12noon, and 3pm for February 21
and December 21. These illustrations show that the majority of
Durant St., at high noon on December 21 , is in the sun.
Mr. Richman said he took the comments specifically from the
applicants submission which states Durant St. will be in the
shade for most of the winter but in February there will be sun
all during the mid-day. Mr. Kane said shade will be created by
the building on Durant St. but with the sloped roof feature and
the additional set back of the building those shading impacts are
minimized. Mr. Kane also felt there should not be a downgrading
for the shading on Spring St. because, being a north south street,
at high noon the sun will be in that street. Mr. Kane thought
this application warranted at least a standard score and requested
a score of 2.5.
The next issue discussed was Site Design. Mr. Kane said the
application had been downgraded because1 '1 the Aspen Ski Company's
failure to pay for 100% of the pedestrian mall as shown in the plan,
and t2 the skier drop-off issue. Mr. Kane said they had submitted
a drawing, called a "Landscape development plan" to show or
document in more detail precisely what the ASC was committing to
in the form of streets in the location. In the first submission
there was a detail plan showing lots of trees and paving, not
clarifying who was going to pay for what. A new drawing has been
submitted showing 2 zones. Zone 1 will be developed by the Aspen
Ski Company at its own expense with input from the Aspen Lodge
Street Improvement District. The plan for zone 2 is to have the
ASC participate in the development of zone 2 essentially as an
adjoining neighbor in the Street Improvement District. Zone 2 is
politically so volatile because of the special requirements of the
Tipple Inn and North of Nell building that politically it is not
reasonable for the ASC to try to be put in the position of being
planner/designer for a street that inherently has problems that
are part of the Tipple Inn and North of Nell operations. Mr. Kane
said zone 2 is not being planned or designed as part of this
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGULAR MEETING PLAlIIIIING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
application. Mr. Kane asked that consideration for zone 2 be
withdrawn from this application and did not feel their score
should be degraded because of failure to pay for that zone.
Mr. Kane said in the issue of the skier drop-off design the
change was to set the building back and try to accomplish as much
of the drop-off on private property as possible. The building
has been set back as far as possible with the basic constraint of
trying to achieve the shipping and receiving functions off of
Spring St, a 45 angle parking configuration is planned, a
planter island installed to insure vehicles will not back into a
moving lane of traffic, and the backing distances and turning
radius are drawn from standard civil engineering design manuals.
Under site design the recommended score of 1 reflects a major
design flaw, Mr. Kane said their requested score would be 2.5
points. Mr. Kane reviewed the plans for the drop-Off area. Hunt
said he had a problem with extensions in to the right of way,
thinking it not practical for the way people drive, and also not
practical for clearing the street of snow. Blomquist said Denver
had installed this type of situation and it works fine. Mr. Kane
said there would be opportunity to talk about this further during
the precise plan stage of review.
Mr. Kane said in the parking and circulation category the applic-
ation was downgraded to inadequate parking because of removal of
public parking for the drop-off area, which was also a cause for
downgrading under site design. Mr. Kane said they have requested
that the drop-off area be considered under one category or the
other and that one issue not be used under multiple categories to
downgrade the application. Mr. Kane commented that the parking
ratios used were the same that were used for the Aspen Mountain
Lodge project, in that .7 spaces per lodge room were used as the
main ratio to generate parking. Tygre asked if the parking on
Durant St. in front of the drop-Off island was going to be
eliminated. Mr. Kane replied yes. White asked how many parking
spaces would be lost with this proposal. Mr. Kane replied 14 in
the summer and 10 to 12 in the winter. White then asked if 14
spaces could be located wi thin the proposed drop-Off area.
Mr. Kane said they were showing 12 spaces. Mr. Kane said they
would request at least a score of acceptable on this issue.
Under amenities the project was criticized for having standard
quality facilities for conferences. Mr. Kane said this is a 96
room hotel and not of a scale to justify large conference facili-
ties. There are facilities in proportion to the number of rooms.
The plan would be to provide full support to those conference
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGm.ll.R MEETING PLANRIIIlG MID ZOIIING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
facilities. Additionally, a night club/bar restaurant operation
was mentioned and is shown on the third floor of the hotel.
Mr. Kane said given the size of the rooms, the quality of the
building itself, the extensive amenities, preservation of the
outdoor deck space, and the preservation of most of the amenities
that currently exist at Little Nell in an upgraded form warrant a
rating of 3 points rather than the suggested score of 2 points.
White asked how big the lodge rooms were. Mr. Forsch replied 550
sq. ft.
Mr. Kane said they would like to have the bonus points considered
for five major reasons. Realization of currently inappropriate
land uses and the fact that there will be a massive clean-up of
the base of the Little Nell site1 improvement of skier/pedestrian
arrival, and the fact that this will result in the largest private
commitment of resources to public spaces than from any other
project in the CitY1 the improvement of skier services in virtually
every categorY1 the excellent building design1 and the reconstru-
ction and improvement of util i ties to incl ude water, sewer,
drainage, electric and fire protection all of which will result
in vastly improved services for the entire neighborhood.
Hunt asked about the circulation around the service area, noticing
on the plans there was not enough clearance for 25 and 35 foot
truck trailers (as shown) to maneuver in the space alloted. John
Cottle, for applicant, said they had discussed this matter at
great length with a traffic consultant and the proposal was at
heir recommendation. Mr. Forsch said more detail could be
obtained and Mr. Hunt said he would like to see it because he did
not believe the area would work.
Markalunas asked how much of the parking would have to be removed
to accommodate the shipping and receiving area. Mr. Forsch
replied none, there is no parking permitted in the area now as it
is currently the Ski Company maintenance facility. Markalunas
then asked about the parking next to the Woodstone Lodge building.
Mr. Kane said that was signed parking from 6pm to 3am and parking
was not permitted there during the day.
Richman commented that if the applicant was committing to the fact
that their design works for the turning radius they have the
ability to demonstrate that to the Commission at the precise plan
stage. The Commission should review and score them based on the
commitment. If they can not meet that commitment that is a
substantial change for their application.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGULAR MEE'l'IIIlG PLANRING MID ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 21. 1986
Hunt said in order for him to score the project he needed to know
if there would be a gondola or a quad chair lift as it would be a
different score. Richman said in terms of skier capacity they
represent identical numbers. Different benefits may be seen from
the two but that information will not be available until later in
the process.
Anderson opened the public hearing.
Anderson entered letters from Mr. Crawford and Mr. John Taylor in
to the record.
Don Crawford, Tipple Inn Board of Directors, said they were
concerned because their only parking is off of Dean St. and they
need a large turning radius to get in to that parking. He said
it was imperative that they have enough space to get in to that
parking. Mr. Crawford did not see how the area could become a
major drop-Off area as proposed and the Tipple Inn residents
still be able to get into their parking. Additionally, there is
concern about long ticket lines at the ticket kiosk proposed for
the end of Dean St.. Mr. Crawford said the owners at the Tipple
Inn were also not interested in getting a bill for an area that
they are not necessarily interested in and will create a lot of
congestion.
Ron Craigtion, read a letter from J.D. Muller, Tipple Inn resident,
asking that the precise plan review, conditional use permit, GMP
quota allotment, not be considered apart from each other and that
any GMP recommendation include as a condition the approval of the
precise plan and the conditional use permit.
Hans Gramiger, concerned citizen, asked if the park incorporated
in the plan had been acquired at this time. Mr. Forsch replied no
but that they were in the process of acquiring it. Mr. Gramiger
said the parking requirements for this project were different
than those for the Aspen Mountain Lodge project, multiplied by
the fact that the ASC is in the business of running ski lifts.
He felt no one had considered providing parking for the people
who pay a large amount of money to use the ski lifts and thought
that should be addressed. Additionally, Mr. Gramiger thought the
site design, parking and circulation, and the service entrance
should be scored a -10 each because the project is an insult to
the community. The service entrance will not work. Mr. Gramiger
thought the building should be moved back, and the entrance moved
to Durant St., with no exits on to Durant or Spring St. but rather
an underground tunnel exiting further down at the next intersect-
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
REGULAR MEETIIIlG PLAlIIIIING MID ZOIIING COMMISSION JAROARY 21. 1986
ion. Mr. Gramiger said the zoning had not encouraged the applicant
to use any ingenuity. Mr. Gramiger added that the Aspen Skiing
Company was in the skiing business and has steadfastly refused to
give parking and now they are requesting a double use and only
want to provide amenities for the new construction, completely
ignoring there is a ski hill.
Jerry ~1t, manager of the Aspen Alps, commented they had worked
with the ASC on this project and they find the plans submitted
very compatible to their area. Additionally, they are pleased
with the design and concept of the proposed project.
Anderson closed the public hearing.
Hunt asked about the serviceability of the new lift to transport
the mountain restaurant merchandise up and down the hill. Will
there be a separate vehicle that will carry these things to the
restaurants. Mr. Forsch said they will be looking in to "work
carriers", which can carry up to a ton of merchandise per load.
Hunt then asked what provisions had been made for the parking of
service vehicles. Mr. Forsch said their thinking was that they
may need access to the service/loading dock which will be made
available. If there is any prolonged term parking they anticipate
having some spaces underground where a vehicle could be left for
longer periods of time.
The Commissioners scored the proj ect. The final score was 55.2
which is above the threshold.
Motion:
Hunt moved to direct the Planning Office to draft a Resolution
which:
1. Forwards to City Council the Commission I s scores on the
GMP project1 and
2. Recommends that City Council not act on the issue of
allotment of 96 lodge units until such time as the Commission
completes its review of associated submissions, and forwards
its complete recommendation to Council.
Peyton seconded. All in favor1 motion carried.
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REGULAR MEETING PLANRIIIlG MID ZOII1IIIlG COMMISSIOII JANUARY 21. 1986
OLD BUSIlIIESS
MUNICIPAL CODE AMElIIDIIEll'.r: LOT SPLIT RESOLUTIOlll
Steve Burstein, planner, explained the request and proposed
language for the resolution.
Gideon Kaufman, applicant's attorney, said he did not understand
why lands annexed by the City should be treated any differently
than land that existed within the City limits. Richman said the
County lot split provision was a 50% density reduction so there is
a community benefit associated with the lot split. Therefore,
someone could be interested in annexation which would in effect give
the right to a lot spl it at density instead of a lower density.
Blomquist thought the last sentence of Condition '1 "and the land
was not annexed by the City subsequent to January 1, 1986"
should be taken out.
Motion:
Hunt moved to approve Resolution '86-1, amended to strike the
last sentence of Condition #11 Tygre seconded. All in favor1
motion carried.
Anderson adjourned the meeting at 7:10 p.m.
=K~ uJ~
Kim Wilhoit, Deputy City Clerk
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