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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
PLANNING & ZONING
SEPTEMBER 22. 1987
Chairman Welton Anderson called the meeting to order at 5:00 pm.
ROLL CALL
Answering roll call were Jasmine Tygre,
Peyton. Ramona Markalunas was excused.
White arrived shortly after roll call.
Roger Hunt, and Mari
Jim Colombo and David
COMMISSIONER'S COMMENTS
Jasmine: I want to make a comment for the record.
me that the continual re-interviewing of sitting
members is a real waste of everybody's time. If
specific complaint about a Commissioner's performance
thing but Mari has had 3 interviews.
It seems to
Commission
there is a
that is one
Mari: This will be the third. The first one was when I applied,
the second one was when I applied to be upgraded from alternate
to full Board member.
Roger: I attended a meeting of the adhoc parking committee of
the Assistant City Manager. We are trying to get people interes-
ted in the parking plan. On October 13th it is coming up to the
City Council. They are going to be asking for somewhere between
$50,000 and $55,000. This will be to implement the plan. The
jist of the meeting was we are going to have to get the business
community down here to try to impress City Council that action
should be taken.
STAFF COMMENTS
steve: The first reading of the Historic Preservation Incentive
Program will be on September 28th. You are all welcome to
attend. It got changed a little from what P&Z had wanted.
Professional offices and beauty parlors are out. They are
thinking in terms of a one time only grant.
MINUTES OF SEPTEMBER 1, 1987
Roger made a motion to adopt the minutes of September 1, 1987.
Mari seconded the motion with all in favor.
GMQS CODE AMENDMENT (cont'd)
PZM9.22.87
Alan Richman: At the last Meeting we tabled this item because we
needed a couple more weeks to work with Craig exactly how this
code amendment would affect not only this specific applicant but
all applicants. Senate Bill 219 is adopted and will go into
effect as of January 1, 1988.
We wanted to start anticipating the need of the City to make a
decision on when development rights vest. The Senate bill talks
about 3 years subsequent to a number of options to be available
into the legislation. Based on talking with Paul and with Craig,
the three of us a recommending the time of vesting be the latest
possible time as opposed to an early stage of the process. We
are suggesting that it be a time when growth management
allocation or final plan approval whichever is the latest.
The reason for that is it means that we are accepting a project
at the point of which we have really signed off on all the
details. We know the most about the project. The only argument
that you could really have for wanting it to be earlier is that
you might want the clock to start ticking as early as possible so
that you get to the end of the 3 year period as soon as possible.
I think that is far outweighed by the advantage of waiting until
you have a project that is in its most real form which is at the
time of your final approval.
Roger: Apparently we have to give public notice after that final
approval when we are starting the clock. within the language of
the bill you have 14 days to do that after that final approval.
They say the exercise of such rights shall not be good until the
day of publication. There is a 3 year and 14 days in there from
the time of approval. That would indicate to me that it should be
as close to the final end of the process as possible.
Alan: Now to apply that general principle to the specific
application initiated by Skip and Gideon. I can see the argument
of treating single family and duplex subdivisions differently
from multi-family, commercial and like projects.
Craig, Paul and I talked about that and agreed that the best
approach to differentiate between the single family/duplex
subdivisions and the mUlti-family and the other projects would be
to make single family duplexes eligible for exemption. That is a
permanent one-time and then permanent exemption from the
provisions of expiration.
with other projects you would want the ability to have continuing
review so that if someone was asking for an extension beyond
those 3 years you would have the ability to question whether or
not it is in the best interest of the community.
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It says to attain an exemption, an application shall be sub-
mitted prior to the 3rd anniversary. So if an applicant is
moving forward diligently in terms of placing the improvements in
the ground, in terms of meeting the conditions of approval in
terms of selling the lots and wants to be able to guarantee to
the owners that those lots will have development rights in
perpetuity, they can come in for that exemption as soon as they
have started meeting those conditions. I would have no problem
of granting it well in advance of that 3 year time period.
For the other pr oj ect s--the multi-family, commercial and lodge
type developments we suggest that they be eligible for extension
much as they are today. That the conditions for granting the
extension be the same two that we mentioned for single family and
then thirdly that the project has been diligently pursued.
Roger: Is it possible for them to comply with those before
coming in for an extension. In other words isn't it the
compliance with those over a time that forces them to come in for
an extension.
Alan: For example the Aspen Mountain Lodge had a number of
conditions which should have been met already and a number of
conditions which still are to be met by the time of certificate
of occupancy. You write your improvement requirements to trigger
at different dates. If they had met all of the conditions that
should have been met as of this time prior to an issuance of a
CO, prior to an initiation of construction, they are eligible for
an extension. And to the best of my knowledge, they have. They
also have been making improvements even though many of those
improvements are not yet required of them. They have been
undergrounding facilities. They just paid--$25,000 was required
of them for Rubey Park even though there was not a specific time
that that was required. They have met many of their conditions
well in advance.
Mari: Under paragraph l.cc "Circumstances which could not be
controlled has prevented sales from taking place". What does
that do? It seems 1 ike anybody could use that. The marke t has
been bad. Is that a circumstance.
Alan: The way these criteria are written you have to meet AA and
BB and CC so it is not approved until all of the above and you
are eligible for an exemption. These were purposely written with
an add after each of the substatements. If someone wants to gain
an exemption they have to prove that they have met their condit-
ions or the reason that they have not been able to.
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Mari: But it doesn't seem to have any meaning.
Alan: It is a statement that not only does this exemption affect
me as the original land owner, it now has gone to the fact that 8
people who have bought lots in the subdivision and if you don't
grab this exemption, you are not just creating a hardship for the
developer, you are creating a hardship for 8 individuals who
relied on the fact that there was a development of record. It
seems to me that if sales of lots have occur red that would be
very convincing to you that the exemption is necessary. If no
sal es had ocur red and it was unclear as to whethe r all the
conditions have been met or any improvements had gone in--if you
had a project that really was not proceeding and no sales had
ocurred, is there any reason for granting an exemption? On the
other hand if sales had ocurred and they still had not done the
improvements and you wish to provide them with the ability to do
those improvements over the next six months you might say grant
the permanent exemption subject to putting those improvements in.
Gideon: We have sold quite a few of the lots. We have had to
guarantee to the purchasers that they will have the lots once
they buy them forever without these restrictions. We have even
had to put in reversionary situations, where if we don't get this
exemption in a timely kind of fashion, we have to buy back those
particular lots. It is a real burden on the developer. We have
already spent on this project over $700,000 in terms of employee
housing commitments, the trails, the bike paths. I want know
that the day this is passed, I can come in and I can get my
approval because otherwise it is a terrible burden on us in terms
of what we have had to do to sell these particular lots. We have
done all the things that we need to do and we need some kind of
certainty in this.
I am not sure what AA means. It says "Those conditions applied
to the project at the time of its final approval which were to
have been met as of the date of application for exemption have
been complied with". Does that mean that as long as I have done
some of my improvements but not all of my improvements? For
example on a project like that it could take us up to 2 years to
complete all of those improvements. We are going to have to buy
lots back before that.
Once you have reached threshold with a project, the road has been
put in, the water and the sewer have been put in, and the
employee housing, we should be entitled to our exemption. And we
should get it now so that we are not put in a position where we
have to buy back these particular lots waiting for everything to
be done.
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Alan: It says "conditions which apply at this time". If the
conditions apply to CO, then they don't apply at this time. I am
trying to make that as clear as I can. This has been reviewed by
your 2 attorneys. And they both felt that AA and BB were
absolutely mandatory and were very comfortable with the language.
We have had enough trouble gaining compliance with PUD and
subdivision agreements that we do not want to give people yet
another opportunity to not comply.
Gideon: The last comment that I have to make is I do not think
that it is either right or legal to make CC a condition. If you
have a situation where the project has done everything it is
supposed to do and the applicant has spent all his money putting
in all the improvements and he decides that the market does not
dictate to sell any lots or he wants to hold the lots, I don't
see how you can take away his right to hold those lots. He has
made the project. He has put in the improvements. He spent the
money and that should be a decision the developer should be able
to make. I just don't think it is right for someone to have to
come in and justify to you after he spent all that money when he
should or should not have to sell the lots. I don't think that
is an appropriate condition given A & B having been complied
with.
Alan: I just suggest to you that CC is not a live and die
condition with me. AA and BB are extremely important to both me
and the attorneys. If it does not have meaning for you, I would
suggest we strike that.
Welton: Does anyone feel strongly about retaining CC?
Jim: Only in that it gives the City some sort of feel for what
is going on. If they come in and say we have decided market
conditions are such that we are going to hold off on sales, I
think that is valid.
Jasmine: The purpose with all of this has to do with allotments
and therefore whatever the reason they need for an extension I
think we should know what is going on.
David: I keep on reading this and I am not quite sure what it
says. The concept that Jim and Jasmine are talking about is not
dissimilar to something we talked about when we did time sharing.
This time sharing came back to us and said, for example the
Prospector, if they had so many units at closing with so many in
escrow and it caused them a problem in selling. They came back
to us, gave us some information and we changed that. This seems
to have some application to that in some way but I am not sure.
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Welton: I don't think it makes much difference one way or the
other. If it is circumstances which cannot be controlled
including the market not being right for selling, sure. I think
you can come up with most any kind of reason for not wanting to
sell and extending their extension.
Gideon: Fred and I just talked about it. He made the point that
an exemption is discretionary. That is what my biggest problem
is. It should not be discretion. If my client puts the
improvements in, sells the lot, does what he is supposed to do--
that is why there should not be an exemption because exemption
has discretion in it. It should be a mandatory requirement on
the City's part because we fulfilled our end of the bargain. You
shouldn't have the ability to turn it down.
Fred: There is no question the bill was put in on behalf of
developers so that they could have a vested right which they
could rely on to their benef it and to the de tr iment of any ease
of any government to maintain a project provided they have done
certain things. You don't have to give any developer any
extension. If you do it is discretionary. If you do issue them
you have to have reason or grounds. I think the CC ref lect s an
ability on the part of the government not to allow a GMP allocat-
ion and then stand out there forever. It is making some
condition of movement on the developer that does not allow him to
sit on this.
Alan: The bill is seen as a two edge sword. On the one hand the
development community should have the assurance for 3 years that
it has the vested rights to the development. On the other hand
it is not mandating communities to keep approvals which are not
being taken forward in any diligent manner and on the books
forever. And so the legislation really has some benefits for
both sides. We tried to write this in an even handed manner so
that people who are moving forward will not only have the 3 year
period but will have a permanent situation because we recognize
that there was a difficulty with that.
In the cases where someone really is just keeping the development
approval hanging on a string for a long period of time, the City
needs a remedy. It is written with that in mind.
Welton asked if there was any other comment from the public.
There was none and he closed the public hearing.
MOTION
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Jasmine: I really don't think the provlslon CC is putting any
undue hardship on any applicant. And therefore, as a potential
safeguard I would like to see it put in.
I will move to recommend the following amended line to City
Council as detailed in Planning Office memorandum dated September
18, 1987 amending Section 24-11.
David seconded the motion with all in favor.
GORDON'S COMMERCIAL GMOS SCORING
Welton opened the public hearing.
Steve: This is an application for a commercial allocation for
1,033 sq ft to enclose Gordon's Restaurant deck which is on the
second floor of the Mill Street Station Building. And al so to
build a new staircase. Adequate quota is available for the
project. This is a situation where because of exemptions
deducted from quota, there is less than 3,000 sq ft available for
this competition. Therefore, automatically in GMP there is 3,000
sq ft available for the competition.
I believe you are all familiar with the procedures of scoring
basically you know the Commission Members each score the project
individually and the average is computed for total points.
The Planning Office has recommended scoring for Gordon's applic-
ation in excess of the threshold requirements and therefore we
are recommending approval of this project.
Just to highlight a few of the staff comments: With regard to
architectural design, we were concerned that the enclosure and
staircase would add to the bulk of the structure as it is viewed
from Hopkins Street. And the concept that was expressed in the
application is that basically because of the transparency of the
addition and because it is set back from the parapet on that deck
area, it has minimized the visual impact, and better relates to
the brick of the building on the other small structures on the
block. That is essentially a residential block that has been
converted to retail uses. I am speaking of the other side of the
block from the Mill Street Station. And a number of small
structures like La Cocina, the little cottage on the end of the
street next to the intersection of Monarch and Hopkins.
HPC particularly did feel strongly that that was the right
concept--that there should be greater transparency and should be
set back from the structure. However, we feel that it can be
better realized than what is presented in the plans. And we
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noted that on the Hopkins Street elevation approximately 51% of
the wall is shown as glass. The east elevation where the
staircase would enter the addition is almost entirely brick and
tile. The south elevation by comparison is about 65% glass. We
feel that 51% of the wall on the solid wall of the east elevation
is not really transparent. So we recommended a score of 1.5.
With regard to site design we noted that the 5
improve the character of the open space area.
some problems on the circulation.
planters should
There are still
Amenities: Engineering Department is
racks are necessary. The applicant has
they will provide bike racks off site.
determine where they must go.
not sure that the bike
assured the committee
CCLC must be involved to
visual impacts: No viewplains or otherwise identified signif-
icant public views are being affected by this project. Actually,
as you walk along Hopkins street now you will notice that the
structure will indeed obstruct some of the view of Aspen Mountain
but not a major design flaw.
Trash: The Engineering Department has recommended that an
additional dumpster or trash compactor be added to the project to
take care of trash generation. This is indicating this as a
design flaw and we recommend a score of 1.
Water and fire protection can be handled. Sewer can be
There is a small impact on the roads to this project.
no change in storm drainage.
handled.
There is
Employee housing: The Housing Author ity was approached by the
applicant with a proposal that said they don't believe that they
are going to be generating any new employees. The Housing
Authority concurred and said that 100% of all new employees would
be housed. The applicant would be committing to provide a letter
of credit for the equivalent of 5.25 for it which is the CC zone
district's employee generation for 1,000 sq ft. The Housing
Authority recommends approval providing that the applicant is
responsible to house all the employees even if it exceeds 5.25.
The applicant will clarify this aspect of the program. We are
recommending the full points available.
Joe Wells: This is an enclosure of a space that is presently
be ing used by the restaur ant in the summer. The in tent behind
the application is not to maximize an increase in dining facil-
ities but rather to provide some needed bar space and waiting
area for the restaurant. Basically the arrival experience to one
of Aspen's finest restaurants is a very small waiting area and a
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small bar with 4 seats. What Gordon would like to do is to get
the entry away from the dining room which he is accomplishing in
this scheme by the addition of a new stair and the elimination of
the existing stair and to get the arriving guests into a new bar
area with seating so that they might wait comfortably for thei r
reservation and not have to stand in the entry way or stand
around 4 bar seats.
Engineering implies that this is an amendment to the previous
GMP. It is our position that it is not an amendment. The
amendment language applies to a situation where someone has
received GMP approval and prior to construction have changed the
project and have to come back to you for an amendment. This is a
new GMP application and should be scored as a new application.
In fact we suffer to some extent because we can't add open space.
We are restricted by our lease as to what we can do to offer
impr ovemen ts and so we suffer to some extent because of pr ior
approval.
Jay Vickory: It would be inappropriate to have glass above the
back bar, the coat room and the toilet areas. We could not
afford to set this back any farther than the 8 inches that we are
proposing because of internal planning. We would not have
adequate room for our tables and the bar. Our new structure has
to stack above the existing structures.
We tr ied to keep the roof line as low as possible. We went to
the arch form which picks up the arch form in the building. And
basically it is pretty quiet and simple. There is a problem with
trying to draw people into the courtyard and we are trying to
improve on that situation.
Mari: What happens to the snow on that roof?
Jay: The roof is almost flat but it has an internal gutter that
goes along the back side and they are heated so that as the snow
would melt it would be intercepted by these warm gutters and they
drain internally. There are going to be 5 planters in front in
addition to the bike racks.
Jim: I am really co nee rned about the stairway. You have center
support posts coming at another 8 ft or so?
Jay: That is to put a light on.
Jim: Are those going to be open treads?
Jay: Yes.
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Jim: So that the snow will come off of that directly down to the
mall area?
Jay: This stair is snowmelt.
Jim: Then it will drip down to the mall area.
Jay: Yes, I suppose. It will be maintained.
Jim: There will be a waterfall down there every time it
spr inkles.
David: It will be melting as it snows.
Jim: Is the reason you are doing that so as to
tectural statement because of internalized usage?
way to use existing stairways?
make an archi-
Is there is no
Jay: It is because you need 2 means of egress from the space and
basically you have a stair back here and this is the new means of
egress. This stair is set up for a 4 ft width.
Jim: How far out does that go to its farthest point into the
court yard.
Welton: 12 or 16 feet.
Jim: I think it is really awkward.
Mari: I think so too.
Jim: I think that architecturally the rest of the project is
nice. I would like to see you use the existing entrance way and
an emergency fire exit at the one end.
Roger: I have to agree with your comments about the fire escape
because that is what it appears to me. It almost looks like you
are adding Joe's Diner on the top and putting the fire escape
access to it. That is the way it affects me looking at it. I
don't see it as integrated in the building at all. It looks like
an afterthought. I have real problems with that fire escape type
of entrance. What I see there I don't like.
Jasmine: First of all I think it is totally obtrusive. I think
that in addition to the fact that it looks very unsafe and
rickety. I think it is a definite drawback to take that
staircase as an access into the restaurant. I know some people
who would never take that staircase into the restaurant. It just
does not look as though it could support anybody safely. The
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other thing that disturbs me is that intrusion into the court-
yard. They have got different roof levels and they have got this
really nice open courtyard. And now you put this staircase right
in the middle of this courtyard. Even though it isn't in the
courtyard itself, it intrudes into that courtyard--shadow and
dripping allover the stuff in the courtyard and I can't believe
you haven't gotten protests from some of the other tenants in the
building.
Joe: In order to do the project there has to be some sort of
staircase in. There are very few solutions to doing the stair
that doesn't affect other stairs in terms of location. There are
precious few locations that the stair can be placed. The affect
on the open space has been considered.
Roger: I would really, design wise, prefer a glassed-in balcony
or something on that order which would look more integrated with
the building. Architecturally that is unintegrated to the rest
of the structure.
Jay: We looked at 3 different optional places to put the stair
and this is the best location. There are certain clearances we
have to maintain above the walkway. There is this existing
window that we didn't want to interfere with and that is why the
brace is where it is. The shape of the stair is a response of
coming off the side of the building and turning and coming back
down to this corner which is where the circulation pattern is
coming off these stairs here. It is just a logical flow and
response to what is going on.
Bill Dunaway: Why are you changing the stairs? what is wrong
with the existing stairs?
Jay: The existing stair does not conform to code.
Jim: They need egress on that side of the building.
Welton: Exits have to be at opposite ends of the space.
Jim: I have no problem with the project outside of that. I hate
to approve the threshold and wind up with this staircase. It
would be an enormous cost savings to you to use the existing
stairway and put the fire escape type of fixture on that end that
would suffice for egress. It is an internal basic layout
situation. You need to have your waiting room along the edge of
the bar or something like that.
Joe: There are valid ways to deal with a specific problem. We
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have to request special review approvals from you. If you have a
problem with the stair, you can deal with it that way.
Jay: We still need to go back to HPC. The HPC did see this
exact stair. They have approved it conceptually. It is a matter
aesthetics. What is, to us, dramatic and exiting and interesting
to go out there and be on a spot where you look down into a
plaza, that is supposed to be an interesting experience.
Joe: Site design area: Obviously we can't add open space. The
way we propose to deal with that is by the additional planters
along essentially a very hard surface area and try to enliven the
area along the wall outside the flow of traffic.
Energy: We made a number of commitments which were endorsed as
being considerably beyond the requirements by the Roar ing For k
energy system including the double door entry system which is
presently a single door entry on the north side. Insulation well
in excess of the code standards and insulation of water lines and
water saving fixtures in the new johns.
In the area of amenities we are reducing the open space by only
.5% which still leaves us with 29% open space in excess of the
25% requirement. We didn't think the project needed another bike
rack since there is already one there on the building. It is
rarely used so what we suggested in that area was to add a bike
rack somewhere else where the City feels one is needed.
Visual impact: There are two considerations.
height limit in this zone district is 40 ft.
Jerome is at about 45 ft by the time it passes
The project is 28 ft high.
First of all the
Viewplain of the
over the project.
Construction is limited to the center of the project. We have
been very careful not to propose any additions by the Berko
building which is pretty well dwarfed by the original project.
We felt that was an essential part of our proposal to try to
minimize the impact on the neighborhood.
Trash: By creating the new bar we are able to go to the gun
system. We thought that adding a gun system in the bar would
help reduce the trash generation quite a bit. We hoped to be
able to resolve any concerns about trash by scheduling additional
pickups. Apparently staff feels we still need to add a dumpster.
We clarify that we will do space for another dumpster in the
trash storage area and we will add one during the peak times to
make sure that there is not a trash problem.
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Public facilities and services: We agree with the Planning
Off ice's scor ing straight down the board. I did want to raise
one area of concern. The Water Department apparently feels there
is a deficiency in the fee relative to the demand by the project.
I was afraid one of you might pick that up and downgrade us in
the area of water. We have been unable to find out whether
that's a building problem or a Gordon's problem but the Planning
Office seems to agree that it's not a GMP issue regardless of
whose problem it is.
Employee housing: We have agreed to submit an affidavit and a
letter of credit. Basically our plan is to document the employee
hours which we have already done through August. We intend to
update that through September. October '86 through September 87
will be the base year in terms of employee hours and that will be
compared to next year. If we exceed the number of hours then we
have to pay a cash in lieu based on the number of new employee
equivalents generated. We had originally committed to 5.25
employees which is the standard per thousand feet of restaurant
space. The Housing Office wanted us to commit to any increase
whether it be 10 or 20 or whatever and we agreed to do that.
Welton: There are two ways we can go about doing this. We can
score it down the line or vote to adopt the Planning Office
scoring which is above the threshold.
MOTION
Mari: I move to adopt the Planning Office's scoring.
David seconded the motion.
Welton asked if there was discussion.
Jim: The discussion is if anybody agrees that the overwhelming
sore spot of this project is that stairway.
Welton: We can address that in the conditions.
Jasmine: I don't understand how we can do that.
Steve: There are several reviews to be coming up. Our review is
concerned with the compatibility of the development. It seems to
me in that review we have the ability to address the staircase.
Roger: I will have to vote against this motion because I think
the site design or architecture rates a 0 and it is mostly
because of that stairway. Secondly, in the back of my mind is
the elevator that was never put in. I agree that Gordon's is
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held in the middle of this thing. It was supposed to be put in
by the Ritz. I think they badly need a service elevator as part
of the problem with service access to the back and vehicles
stacked up back there because of the time necessary for a guy to
clunk up the stairs with a 2 wheeler truck. If the site design
is changed to 0 and that is factored in, it will still be over
their threshold but I think they rate a 0 for site design.
Joe: So how does that affect the motion?
Jasmine: Roger and I have serious concerns about the architect-
ur e of site de sign. Technically we can handle either area by
putting it in under FAR application. It seems to me that the
most appropriate place to do this is in the GMP application
itself. We have an area for site design and I think that a lot
of us are concerned that it should be registered there.
Welton: There is a motion on the floor is there a second?
There being no second the motion was withdrawn for revision.
Welton: The threshold for category #1 is 5.4 points. The
Planning Office gave them 10.5 points so if you want to withdraw
the motion and remake it to change the site design to change the
numbers--
Mar i: We would then be accepting the Planning Off ice scores on
everything except the design.
There was general agreement.
Mari: I withdraw the motion.
David: I withdraw the second.
Mari: I move that we accept the Planning Office recommended
scoring on every category except for site design.
Welton: I was going to suggest that we vote on a score that we
all agree on or a majority agrees on.
Jim: Possibly a way of doing this is allowing threshold by
rating 0 on architectural design and 0 on site design and 0 on
visual impact.
Welton: Then they won't make threshold.
Jim: Ok, then give them 1 on visual impact. This puts on record
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our complaint about it. They have made threshold still and then
on the bonus review simply identify the problem.
steve: Architecture, you want to say o. Site I?
Fred: Architecture, 0, site, 0, visual, 1
David: You have to be eligible by 4 points.
Wel ton: We recommend Planning Office scoring except for 0 for
architectural design, 0 for site design, and a 1 for visual
impact which leaves them enough points to make threshold.
Mari: I so move.
Roger seconded the motion
Welton asked if there was any public comment.
There was none.
Everyone voted in favor of the motion except Jasmine.
GORDON'S SPECIAL REVIEW
steve: The City Attorney's Office has something to say about
some of the non-compliance with the original application of 1980.
We have identified 4 of them. They are the employee housing, a
food locker in the service area, landscaping was promised to go
within the site which never occurred and the elevator. We don't
think that they were GMP scoring issues.
Jasmine: The elevator was.
Steve: The elevator was one.
Fred: They were not GMP scoring issues. They were scoring
issues for the 1980 application. The question is whether or not
this applicant should be penalized for the 1980 applicant who did
not live up to his promises. Our position is that he shouldn't.
We hope that this applicant as well as the other tenants in the
building will slowly but surely bring this into compliance. In
other words live up to what was promised.
Jim: Is that going to be our precedent in the future then?
Fred: No. The point is in terms of whether this applicant should
be held to bear notice of what prior applicants did not do. we
say he should not be penalized. That does not mean we will not
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seek to enforce or to bring compliance these issues. It is just
asking that this applicant not be penalized for what was not done
and what he did not commit to do. So it is not a precedent in
that respect.
Jasmine: A couple of weeks ago an applicant applied to put in a
restaurant use in a new building on the second floor. One of the
conditions of approval and scoring on that building was that if a
restaurant use was to be put in on the second floor that a
dumbwaiter had to be installed.
Here was that poor guy who is wanting to put in a restaurant.
Because the developer did not put in the dumbwaiter, they can't
put in a restaurant because it is a new use. So we can say no
even though it is not the applicant's fault. The applicant just
wants to open up a business, the landlord of the building says
"yes you can have a restaurant use in there but I am not putting
in a dumbwaiter". This means you can't have a restaurant use.
Fred: What you have here is an application to amend what is
already in place. It is not a new use. It is to create an
expanded extension of a use.
Jasmine: OK. But the problem we come up with here in P&Z is, we
put all these regulations in that we score on the basis that
these applications will be enforced, they are not enforced and
then--what does this all mean?
Fred: It is not a question of not being enforced. The question
of enforcement is get ting to real ize that it is just not easy.
The question in this case here is that you have the Building
Department and the Planning Department and the Attorney's Office
trying to go after different parties at different times. I don't
know personally the history of the enforcement except to say that
it has obviously not been enforced.
Jasmine: It is just that we have the Planning & Zoning
Commission and apparently nobody else seems to have any redress.
Fred: It is not that you have no redress. And it is not tha t
there is not an avenue to take place. It is just whether or not
this is the appropriate avenue.
Bill Dunaway: Is handicap access now a part of the code for the
restaurant?
Fred: Handicap access is part of the code.
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Bill: How can they do any sort of addition if they don't meet
the code provisions?
Fred: You are absolutely right. How can they? The fact is that
they have a restaurant because they meet code requirements.
Bill: I thought part of the code was that you can't enlarge a
nonconforming use.
Steve: It is not a use by terms of definition.
Bill: Well, nonconforming structure then. I am not talking the
original plans. I am talking about the codes today. They are
asking for an enlargement, and additional--
Fred: There is a prov ision in the Colorado State Statutes that
says that if putting an elevator into a building costs more than
2 and 1/2% of the total construction cost of the building that
that poses a hardship on the builder and it give him an exempt-
ion. That is how this building got built without an elevator.
Steve: Did you go to the Board of Adjustments on that?
Joe: No. That cleared through the Building Department.
David: I don't think it is right to stop an applicant who is not
the owner of the building when we are really trying to get at the
owner of the building. We know about the employee housing issue.
We know about these others. What Jasmine is saying is the only
thing we have to stop this from happening is the owner of this
restaurant goes back to the owner of the building and says "What
you did stopped me". That is not really fair. But what is fair?
How do we get at this? We have got a real problem.
Fred: It is obviously a question of enforcement and that is not
easy.
Dav id: The problem with this is someone comes before P&Z they
make all of our thresholds by offering everything and then they
don't live up to what they committed to do and then they stick it
on the tenant.
Fred: I do suggest you make your comments to Council. Osten-
sibly it is Council who has the final action. They have the
authority to direct the Building Department and our office to
take specific actions to specific instances.
Jim: I would agree that until we get a consensus from the City
that this applicant should not be made to bear any burden. So I
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agree with the decision of the City Attorney. I think the best,
place to enforce these things is right here.
Fred: One way to do that is to have letters of credit made to
the benefit of the City by the developer at the time that they
are committed to certain things. And if those things are not put
in on time, you just draw up the letter of credit.
Steve: The applicant is the owner of the building.
shouldn't be too much confusion. It is Tony Mazza.
Joe: Technically it may be Tony Mazza but Gordon is bearing the
expense for doing this project. I promise you that if you make
the condition of the approval that an elevator has to be added,
this project will not happen because Frank and Tony won't pay for
it and Gordon can't pay for it.
So there
Fred: We are facing enforcement issue head on now. For
everything that comes up there is going to be some enforcement
angle. It needs to be addressed principally by Council and then
Council needs to authorize specific action.
Steve: With regard to the FAR on this what the applicants need
is to try to utilize unused bonus of FAR on the basis of their
having supplied employee housing back in 1980. The employee
housing issue, you can confront that head on. It has been
converted to an office use and that is illegal and it also screws
up their ratio--their internal FAR ratio.
David: It has never been an employee unit.
Steve: We insist that there be a condition placed on proper
occupation of the units and that this all be properly verified
prior to the issuance of the building permit. I think that the
applicants are willing to go along with that. Furthermore, the
leases should be reviewed on a 6 month basis to be sure that
proper occupancy rental rates are occurring there.
There are 2 criteria for the bonus FAR. The first one deals with
the compatibility of the new structure development with the
surrounding land uses and zoning. The concern that HPC had in
regard to increasing the sense of bulk you could decrease that if
you were to set the structure back further and if you were to
utilize more transparency or graphized bricks or something like
tha t.
We are still concerned with that particular aspect of it and HPC
does have final review authority. It is, in large part, an
historic compatibility issue given the location next to Berko's.
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We suggest that our condition be added on the bonus FAR, the
greater transparency and set back further from the Hopkins Street
elevation be accomplished to the satisfaction of HPC as deter-
mined at the final HPC rev iew.
Joe: Our concern is one of timing so we either resolve it in
your next meeting or this project probably doesn't happen.
Glenn: Our 3 rd condition is that they come back to us pr ior
issuance of the building permit.
Roger: Is a spiral staircase satisfactory as a fire escape?
Welton: No, it is not.
Joe: First of all the studio unit is presently being used by
Gordon as his office. He was unaware when he took the space that
it was supposed to be an employee unit. Nonetheless, he is the
guilty party. The new lease which I have with me gives him a new
space down next to Rebecca's on the ground floor and he is
satisfied with this language that prior to the issuance of the
building permit that the unit will be restored to employee use.
I have some concerns about the precise language in the 2nd
condition. I hate to be placed in the position where you are to
some extent referring to HPC on the issue that I really feel is
your purview more so than HPC. I am concerned with the language
"to the satisfaction of the HPC".
David: I agree with you. I don't like that at all. I don't see
why we give that up. That is our area of concern. Why should we
give that up to HPC.
Steve: The HPC has expressed interest in it as an historic
compatibility issue.
Joe: We think that this is the roll and purview of the P&Z and
not the HPC, particularly on non-historic structure that is
totally in compliance with the established height, setback and
other area involved with requirements of the zoning district.
David: I have to be with Joe.
Jim: what is your setback problem?
Steve: Originally they talked about 8 inches and we said "well,
what about 2 ft?". They didn't want it to say "You must do 2
ft" . They wanted it to be fur ther studied and it really hasn't
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been. It has simply been maintained that that is all the space
they can do.
Jim: Perception-wise, I don't see that 2 feet is going to make
any difference at all. It is not important.
Welton: It is not that important a factor to me either.
Roger: What is more important to me is the transparency of this
addi tion.
Jay: We have used glass everywhere we possibly can use it.
MOTION
Jim: I would make a motion to accept this proposal subject to
the following conditions: #1. As noted in the Planning Depart-
ment's recommendation memo. Striking item #2 both the trans-
parency issue and the setback issue. Adding a new second item
which is that applicant return to P&Z for approval of stairway
design prior to issue of a building permit.
David seconded the motion with all in favor except Roger and
Jasmine.
Welton: Reduction of trash and utility area.
Steve: The Engineering Department has pointed out that there is
a need for a 4th dumpster or a trash compactor. And basically it
does not meet the criteria as the Engineering Department's
recommendation that something else be done. The area itself is
great except they put a large food locker taking up over half of
the space.
Chuck Roth: It sounds like Joe is going to commit to another
dumpster and that would take care of the problem.
Joe: The space is not as long as required but it is unusually
deep. Trash storage areas have to be 10 ft deep and this one is
almost 15 ft deep. There is room to get another dumpster behind
the other 3. We called BFI to see if that would be a problem for
them function-wise and they said no. We have to pull them all
out anyway so it does not matter to them whether one is in back
or not. So we can make that commitment.
Roger: Is the one in back available to fill?
Joe: I suppose that is a fair question.
answer it.
I am not sure I can
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steve: The condition we are recommending is that if they try to
accommodate another dumpster that it be in the configuration
approved by the Engineering Department.
MOTION
Roger: I move to approve the reconfiguration of the trash and
utilities access area subject to the condition that either a
dumpster or a trash compactor be provided in the trash area in a
configuration acceptable to the Engineering Department. That
shall be determined prior to the issuance of a building permit.
In case of the 4th dumpster which may be configured behind the
other dumpster, that the Engineering Department shall be sure
that it is accessible for use by the tenants of the building.
Mari seconded the motion with all in favor.
Jasmine: My concern is what happens when a builder receives P&Z
approval and then an applicant who is a tenant in the building
comes to P&Z and has to go through this hard time by the Planning
and Zoning Commission. It is really unfair that the developers
can get into this situation because if in fact you do enforce it
the burden of these improvements is supposed to be on the
developer and not fall upon the tenant who is trying to run a
business. I know that we don't want to be unfair to the applic-
ant in these situations because they have walked into something
that is not of their making and yet we are supposed to be
concerned with development and development application. To say
that it is an enforcement problem is not adequate. I would like
to see if the Planning Office or Councilor somebody could come
up with a way that developers of these projects can be held
accountable--not the tenants who rent the space.
Jim: I think a resolution to Council to ask that the Attorney's
Office come up with a feasible solution might be a way to get
this done.
Steve: The problem is that not all land use applications and
review processes allow the P&Z to establish conditions of
approval.
David: I really acknowledge what Jasmine is saying because what
we do is we grade somebody on their applications. On this
application, they were 3rd out of 3 applications. If they had
not put in employee housing, which they did not do--if they had
not put in the elevators, which they did not do--they might not
have passed it. That building might not have ever been built.
And what we are doing and we have done many times, we have held
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up the current applicant who wants to do something to his
restaurant or something like that because the person who built
the building did not do something right. We have got to figure
some way out of that. I think we have to go to Council with some
kind of a resolution from us saying it is a big concern for us
because we would totally change our views on things. Roger has
said it. We have all said it with different applications. They
say they are going to build certain things and we give them so
many points for this and they pass threshold. Then they don't
build it as they said they would and we gave them the points to
get by threshold.
Bill Dunaway: I really think that a promise made to GMP super-
cedes a state law because you are not imposing it. You are
making him live up to a promise. I am talking about the
developer. I don't buy this thing of not allowing to put it in
and I know it didn't come up to you or the Council. It was
handled by the Building Department. It was still not correct to
supercede the promises made to get an allocation just because
there is a state law because that law does not apply to his
promise. He agreed to put in an elevator.
Welton: Right.
Steve: It is an error, there is no question about it.
Welton: Find some way to fix it.
Jim: Is there some way to get a formal request to get this issue
on Council agenda so we can get the thing resolved so he can get
going. Can we make a formal request for that.
MOTION
Jim: I make a motion to request that this item be put on this
week's Council agenda if the applicant has submitted to a review
of the plans.
Jay: What is not shown on the model is the hand rail and a
system of grids that is in there. Again this is all beefy stuff,
beefy pieces of steel. It is all designed to be sturdy.
Jim: This looks fine. In my opinion it basically the fact that
it sticks out 12 ft or so into an open court yard which is
pedestrian oriented. It just doesn't seem to tie to the building
itself. It becomes some sort of appendage to the building which
in itself is not a work of art. I think that the stairway should
be less obtrusive. I understand where you are coming from as far
as location and what you are bringing it into. But I think that
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PZM9.22.87
is not going to be a very pleasant approach to the restaurant.
That is a wonde rful restaur ant. I think that is going to be a
deterring factor getting into it. Any sort of appendage that
comes off like that really it just doesn't go with that building
in my opinion. Make it understated if you can--get it closer to
the building. Perhaps look at an inner relocation as far as
entry and waiting area goes and perhaps putting the stairway
somewhere else.
MARSHALL LOT SPLIT
Glenn Horn: This is at 320 Lake Avenue. It overlooks Hallam
Lake. It is a large lot. It is 13 ,000 sq ft. It is zoned R-6.
Right now there is a beautiful 2 story victorian house there
which is historically designated. I think it received a score of
3 in the ratings. It is not the highest score you can receive
but it is a notable structure. And it has these 3 beautiful huge
Cottonwood trees. The parcel 2 which they have shown here is
really a beautiful back yard for this parcel. It is heavily
landscaped with lots of trees, very private and it all overlooks
Hallam Lake.
We went down to the lake and had a look at this particular parcel
and due to the trees and the way that the existing house is set
back f rom the bank it just is not visible f rom Hallam Lake. We
thought that the lot split would protect Hallam Lake and also is
consistent with the character of this particular house which is
historically designated.
Since the time that I wrote this memorandum, Jane went back and
talked with the property owner to talk about the side yard
setback in particular to the setback between parcel 1 and parcel
2. And they decided rather than making parcell 6,000 sq ft and
parcel 2 7,600 sq ft, they want to move this boundary over to the
south which would protect the Cottonwoods, make this lot 7,600 sq
ft and this one 6,000 sq ft. I think it would pr otect the
Cottonwoods from this new house which would be very close to
them. And also give the existing parcel of the Marshall house a
lot more privacy from this new house that is going in.
Jim: There is a house already proposed for this lot?
Glenn: No, we are just trying to establish a building envelope.
One of the things that Jane has said is that they have volun-
tarily gone to the Historic Preservation Committee for review--a
non-binding review but a review on this house. Jane also has
seen Tom Cardiman and talked to him about what the concerns the
Aspen Center for Environmental Studies would be. And his
concerns are concerning runoff and that sort of thing on Hallam
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PZM9.22.87
Lake, and setting things back from the bank. They are not going
to build any decks or fences or anything like that on this bank
which will protect the Aspen Center for Environmental Studies.
I don't think that this side yard setback is really of particular
concern any more because they are going to move the lot line.
The way it is drawn, the house could be within 10 ft of the top
of the bank. And right now this house is about 40 ft from the
top of the bank. I somewhat arbitrarily picked a setback to
split the difference between the 2. And that is my recommend-
ation.
Likewise I thought that it is unlikely that this particular house
here if it is expanded, it will be expanded toward the street
because it is a victorian and historically designated. I thought
it might be more compatible if the setbacks on the properties
matched. I would recommend that we match the front yard setbacks
on the two houses.
The issue boils down to your discussion of the setback. I feel
uncomfortable talking about FAR when we are in the midst of
revising those and I don't think it would be fair to do anything
with restrictions at this time.
Jane Ellen Hamilton representative for the Marshalls: The only
conditions that we have some problems with are the setbacks.
Ronnie has lived in this house since 1972 so she is real
concerned about the area. That is why she voluntar ily came to
you with a building envelope and with the conditions from Tom
Cardiman satisfied. We have agreed to relocate as many of the
trees as possible during the construction on the back lot line at
Tom's suggestion for vertical habitat.
If we go along with the setbacks that Glenn has recommended
particularly the front yard setback, given the fact that we have
already given ourselves less of a setback than we are entitled to
in the code we would ask to be able to keep it up at this line
simply because we need to have floor area. By coming in from the
side, reducing this down and also by reducing setbacks we have
already reduced the size of the building envelope could be if we
hadn't done so.
I would like to point out that in between the two lots there are
a lot of trees, a lot of big bushes and several big evergreens
that sti 11 would be in place. We are also willing to discuss
with you on the rear line that Ronnie would be willing to
designate the back 5 or 10 feet of the building envelope as a
deck only to reduce the visibility of the bulk from Hallam Lake.
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PZM9.22.87
Tom has indicated to us that he is all in favor of this as much
as a person can be to any development on the lake because we have
agreed to do everything he has asked.
Welton: Are we creating lots less than 60 ft?
Jane: I am going to have to check with the surveyor because they
will have to redraw it but I am assuming--it will probably be
about 65/55 break but I can't speak to that.
Welton: It is a minimum of 60 ft on the front.
David: I have a personal feeling that one of the things that is
bothering me in the west end is all the buildings right up to the
curb. There is no front yard any more. I think with this back a
little bit, it looks a little nicer.
Jane: We hate those huge things that have been going in in the
west end too. We just need to have the flexibility when we are
selling a lot because with the restrictions it is going to have
on it has already affected it's sale value.
Welton: I suggest a 15 ft and 10 ft and a 20 ft rear yard
setback with the last piece of 10 being back on.
Jane: We would be willing to do that.
Jim: 30 ft setback per building envelope.
Glenn: 30 ft for building, 20 ft for decks
Welton: And front yard being 15 ft. deep.
David: They are coming to us and giving some things.
Glenn: I don't know. From an architectural standpoint if it is
better for these things to be uniform and try to copy the house
next door or is it better if it is a little different.
Jim: stagger it a little bit and give to give them both some
privacy.
Jane: We have come to you to try to make a lot of concessions
right up front and there is only just so much we can do.
Glenn: One thing to keep in mind is that although Ronnie and
Jane might have good intentions for this particular lot in terms
of building, some that have been built in the west end are all
built to within 5 to 10 feet of the maximum principle. There
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PZM9.22.87
seems to be a track record--going right to the max. Maybe they
won't go to the max for a building envelope but they pr obably
will go to the max on FAR.
Jim: If we allow these 10 ft setback and they put a porch they
will be 2 ft from the front property line.
Welton: A porch cannot encroach in a setback. A deck can. A
suggestion would be the difference between the Planning Office
recommendation and the minimum of 15 ft and 30 feet with the 10
deck on that.
MOTION
I would entertain a motion approving a lot split on that basis.
Number 1 being as we just described with the conditions being as
they are in the Planning Office memo. We need to address the
condition 10 being minimum lot frontage for each lot shall be 60
ft.
Roger: The way of addressing that is going to the mlnlmum
frontage on parcel 2 and then--in other words just a straight
angle back to come up with--I guess it would be OK minimum then
whatever the straight line back is to give you the minimum of
--' 6,000 sq ft for that parcel rather than come up with a straight
little jog there.
Welton: The lot areas for lot 1 be 7,603 sq ft and the lot area
for lot 2 by 6,000 sq ft with a minimum lot frontage for each lot
at 60 ft. That would be condition 10.
Roger: And then a recommendation of a line in between being a
straight boundary as far as possible.
Welton: And a line in between be a straight line configured in
such a way as to come up with these lot areas.
Glenn: We need to still be able to get a driveway in there when
we configure this lot. The building envelope may have to change
slightly because of the driveway. We will figure that out before
Council takes a look at it.
Jane: What we would like to do about the trees is to add at the
end of the number 2 condition "to the extent possible". We will
relocate every tree possible. Some of them we may not be able
to.
Welton: I will entertain a motion.
26
Roger: I so move.
Jim seconded the motion with all in favor.
Meeting was adjourned.
Time was 7:15 pm.
Janic(f4{i;~-J#-ii t;
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