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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19910416 RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION APRIL 16. 1991 Chairman Welton Anderson called meeting to order at 4:30pm. Answering roll call were Sara Garton, Roger Hunt, Jasmine Tygre and Welton Anderson. Richard Compton, Bruce Kerr, and Mari Peyton arrived shortly after roll call. COMMISSIONER'S COMMENTS Welton: I would like to take this opportunity to thank my fellow Commissioners for 14 years with interesting Tuesday nights. This meeting will be my last meeting if the Meadows is resolved and goes before City Council. So rather than making a speech I just want to say goodbye to everybody. STAFF COMMENTS Amy: Planning staff wants to thank you, Welton, for all of the years that you have served and let you know that we will be planning an appropriate celebration in recognition of your years on Planning & Zoning commission. WELTON: AND WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS A RECORD-BREAKING MEETING TONIGHT. PAINLESS. OUICK AND TO THE POINT. PUBLIC COMMENTS There were none. RIO GRANDE RESOLUTION Leslie: There are 4 clarifications I need from P&Z regarding this resolution. Those are P&Z asked that the valley light rail track alignment and the terminal be shown on future maps. I am assuming that you want staff to include that within the memo in your future review packets. The second one is the actual alignment for the trolley. You have said that specific alignment concerns should be reviewed by the City Council. I am sure if we are all to referring to the alignment as it goes around the ball field or the alignment should go half way around the ball field. We didn't really specify which half and also staff was hoping to get to some conclusion on whether the alignment should dip down into the trees. Someone had made a comment that the eliminated right there at the Art Park. really what came out of the meeting or trolley stop should be I wasn't sure if that is if that is something you PZM4.16.91 want to include in the future review of the actual alignment of the trolley. Sara: I recall on discussing the ball field that the trolley would go down that between the Youth Center and the Jail and come around on the north side. Roger: Assuming there is a north side alignment I see no reason to exclude the stop at the Art Center. Richard: Those are my conclusions exactly. Sara: One question--regarding prior to the time of submission the applicant shall work with the Commission to develop and operational policy of multiple use for the--I don't want them to work with us. I want them to come back with the idea but I am not going to schedule it for them. Leslie: I suggested that before final submission check in with you guys to see if they are on the right track with you. Sara: Because I was really adamant about that. Leslie: I want them to present to you what it is that they have come up with prior to final submission. Roger: On the first Whereas that plan of 1988--is that the plan that is the adoption prioritization of the uses to be accommodated on the Rio Grande SPA? Leslie: Yes. That is where you talk about that the snowmelter should be eliminated and the area should be used for arts usage. Leslie: You did not prioritize that statement. I did not see a prioritization. This SPA plan of 1988 is the last time anybody looked at the plan as a whole. Roger: Well, on one of those plans we set up a hierarchy of accommodations in the SPA. I would like that included somewhere. As far as I know that was adopted by both us and City Council. I would like a reaffirmation of that or inclusion of that. The setting up of the priority of the uses. transportation uses were to be accommodated available basis other uses to be looked at was the plan I remember. For example primarily first. And then on an on top of that. That Sara: On page 4--Item 8. Is there a conflict if we eliminate the snow dump? 2 PZM4.16.91 Leslie: Yes. There would still be a conflict because that only vehicular access to the lower portion of the site. called Snow Dump Rd right now. is your It is Sara: Art Park Way. MOTION Roger: I move to adopt the resolution concerning the Rio Grande SPA as relates to the Art Park, Trolley and Snow Dump. Sara seconded the motion with all in favor except Jasmine. Jasmine: The reason for my "no" is I cannot approve of the Art Park structure. 716 WEST FRANCIS. 620 WEST HALLAM AND 214 WEST BLEEKER HISTORIC DESIGNATION Roxanne: Made presentation as attached in record. Welton asked for public comment. Anne Meridith: I live at 624 which is next door to one of the remodels. I don't really have a problem per se with the landmark designation but since you are considering a masterplan as far as FAR, I do have a problem with the size. They are basically building to maximum FAR. I just wanted to make sure that the landmark designation only entitles them to a variance on the parking space reduction. I have a problem with them possibly at a later date getting variances on height or whatever else. Welton: We are not in a position to rule on any of those variations in FAR or setbacks. That is something that will happen at conceptual review level at HPC and there will be a notice sent out. We have no say on any of those variations. That is an HPC call. There were no further public comments and Welton closed the pUblic portion of this hearing. MOTION Jasmine: I move to recommend landmark designation for 715 West Francis, 620 West Hallam and 214 West Bleeker on the condition that all requirements have been met. Bruce seconded the motion with all in favor. 3 PZM4.16.91 GORDON STREAM MARGIN REVIEW AND CONDITIONAL USE FOR ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT Leslie made presentation as attached in record. Jasmine asked a question here but there was so much noise I couldn't hear. Leslie: I have not checked with our city Attorney on this. Jasmine: Obviously we have an opportunity here if the applicant wanted to provide an accessory unit we would like to see a caretaker unit there. Leslie: The stream Margin Review I would eliminate #1 in the conditions of approval to the accessory dwelling unit. But all the rest of the conditions of approval stand. What we requested of the applicant is to run an analysis on the river and the river basin and the 100 year flood plain and what came out of that And also is one of the shifting of the 100 year flood plain. What needs to happen is FIMA needs to approve that change in the 100 year flood plain line. And really it is an amendment process to the map. If FIMA approves that then we have no problems with that. But if FIMA doesn't approve that then we will work with the applicant, FIMA and the Engineering Dept to work out a situation that hopefully will allow them to do their addition without mumble. Welton: stan, conditions? (Mathis, architect) have you reviewed the Mathis: Yes, I have. The rest of it is fine. Welton opened the public portion and asked for public comment. There were none and he closed the public portion of the hearing. MOTION Roger: I move the approve the stream Margin Review and conditional use for an accessory dwelling unit with the following conditions: Conditions #2 through #11 to be renumbered starting with #1 of Planning Office memo dated June 16, 1991. (attached in record) Jasmine seconded the motion with all in favor. 4 PZM4.16.91 ASPEN MEADOWS RESIDENTIAL GMOS. FINAL SPA AND REZONING CONTINUED SCORING Amy: We would like you to re-confirm your vote on the Growth Management scoring. Code requires that each Planning commissioner individually give his project bonus points. The last time you gave bonus points and then voted on it. 'It was a 4 to 2 vote. What we would like for you to do now is if you wish to give the project bonus points to write those down and your reason or rational for those bonus points. And we will incorporate that into the final score. Welton: Would you put on your list of things to do for the next millennium a way of making the voting to confirm the Planning Office recommendation to give it some form of substance. Most of the time it has not been a problem. This, because of the concerns of the applicant that all the T's be crossed and the I's be dotted, we are having to jump through a lot of hoops that it might have made more sense to score the whole thing as if it was competing with another applicant. Amy: We can add some language to the code to allow for that. Richard: I am 1 of the 2 people who voted against accepting the Planning Office scoring. The language in the resolution here says something about they were individually scored and we all signed off on it. That is not what happened. Amy: That was not our understanding. We were under the understanding that the Planning commission did accept the scores but the vote was 4 to 2 against the bonus points. So if that is the case we do need you to re-score and give it your own score. Richard did his own individual scoring. commission members also did the bonus scoring. CONDITIONAL USE FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS Kim: To deal with the fact that part of the housing mitigation plan for the Meadows. Each of the 4 lots has contained within it a 500sqft affordable housing unit. Typical of what we usually see our accessory dwelling unit. Although these will carry additional deed restrictions to require price and income occupancy. Look at the condition in the resolution on page 16. standard and has been maintained throughout our However we have added 2 new conditions--#4 and #5. It is fairly presentation. These are to 5 PZM4.16.91 guarantee that the units are occupied by appropriate tenants. Basically homeowners are obligated to keep the units occupied by qualified tenants and it requires that the homeowner is obligated to notify the Housing Authority when he has a vacancy. Jasmine: Once again we have conditions that I think are unenforceable. What if the homeowner does not notify the Housing Authority? Amy: We have deed restrictions filed with the Housing Authority and just like any other unit, the Housing Authority can enforce those conditions that are in the deed restrictions. Jasmine: Which means that the Housing Authority then has the right to put somebody in it. Amy: Absolutely. Welton re-opened the public portion of the hearing and asked for comment. There were no comments and he closed this part of the hearing. MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion to incorporate this as part of the resolution. Jasmine: I will so move. Mari seconded the motion with all in favor. SPA VARIATION Kim: The SPA variations requests are required in order to allow certain of these developments to occur and they are broken down into 2 categories. One regards the variations from underlying zoning districts which are proposed in the application. Regarding these zone district variations for the RMF Zone District and also the R-15 Zone: The RMF zone district variations requested are a waiver to the 6 month minimum lease requirements for condominium units that will be constructed in this zone district. And that is to allow the owners of those units who mayor may not be associated with the Institute to allow them to be short termed for Institute users or free market short term use. There are 2 new conditions within RMF zone district which we have added in the resolution. Those are where the applicant has stated that they have found in their architectural analysis that they were 6 PZM4.16.91 going to be exceeding the maximum height requirement for RMF and these are in the tennis townhomes and the Trustee townhomes. The R-15 zone district variations requested have been discussed earlier and those are the minimal lot size requirement for R-15 of 12,000sqft rather than the 15,000sqft and also the 2 side yards on Lot 7 and 10 which are the outer most side lotline. The request is to have those be 0 lotline setbacks in order to provide more building separation within the row there. The staff supports these mitigations. Jasmine: On the RMF zone, wouldn't it be a good idea to include the reason for the waiver for the minimum 6 month restrictions. Very often in the past we have gotten requests for condominiumization applications and one of the first things that always happens is that people want to waive the 6 month minimum requirement. In this particular case they have good reason and applies to this particular property for granting this kind of waivering. It seems to me that that might be a good thing to include in so that other applicants can't request the same thing. Kim: Would you like to include a finding statement resolution whereby the Commission feels like because of associated directly with the Institute and the non-profit in the the use users. There was general agreement on this. Welton re-opened public comment. hearing. the public portion of this hearing and asked for There was none and he closed this part of the MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion to adopt this portion of the resolution. Mari: I so move. Sara seconded the motion with all in favor. VARIATIONS FOR SUBDIVISION REOUIREMENTS AND DESIGN STANDARDS Kim: We asked the applicant the last time to provide us with comprehensive listing of every variation they were requesting. There are variations out there that would be part of the SPA. For the most part subdivision requirements are contain both design issues and the intersection design. They are proposing no curb and 7 PZM4.16.91 gutters. I think the Engineering Dept would like to have included traffic control signs. We had meeting with A.J. Zavia and Roger yesterday. We went over some of these design issues for the intersection. Design standards again for roadways include ROWs which the City Engineer will accept upon final designation. At this point they appear to be about 47ft. Amy: On page 18, A2 instead of just saying "portions of streets" "street right of way". We want to say street design and right of way and portions of street right of way. So it encompasses design of street as well as the right of way. Roger: I have a question about A3. Would it not be better to say "The minimum anticipated radius is 65ft". Welton re-opened the public portion of the hearing and asked for public comment on the design standards. Chick Collins: I have prepared a letter which addresses some of the concerns that I have with regard to variances in design standards. (attached in record) He also questioned the qualifications of A.J. Zavia as not being a traffic or transportation engineer. The other thing the letter addresses generally in the whole application is the inadequate and incompleteness of the final SPA development plan submittal. I think this submittal was totally inadequate in terms of requirements set forth in Chapter 24 of the Land Use Regulations and compromise a lot of important issues that should have been brought forth by the Planning and others who have reviewed the submittal. One item was the final subdivision plat which should encompass something in the order of 20 to 30 specific items that were not shown on the final submission plat. And I think this lack of information makes it extremely difficult for the citizens who come to these public hearings to respond in a responsible manner when they do not have the information they need to find out what is going on. Welton: ChiCk, are these the same inadequacies that you brought up as deficiencies at the first meeting we had 2 weeks ago that I suggested that you get together with the Planning Office in order to give notice to the applicant that they were deficient? Chick: I think there was a general statement at that time. If you will recall in the subdivision and design standards there are something like 30 to 40 items which have just been glossed over 8 PZM4.16.91 that have not been responded to and not been responded to in an effective manner. For instance, the alignment of the new road that comes down from 7th and crosses private property and goes into the race track. I brought this up to the Planning Office at one time that the private lot is non-conforming and the code says :you cannot make it more non-conforming. Welton: Are you talking about Charlie Marqusee's lot? chick: I am just siting an example. The answer to that was that the applicant should give the equivalent amount of land to make up the deficiency on this non-conforming substandard lot. So the map was changed and communications were exchanged. This is how it was going to be taken care of. Now I understand it has gone back again and that may not be necessary because there is a new order of things which involve a public road easement on a private road-- something to that order. These are all very questionable items and I think that as these are looked into further the deficiencies and the weaknesses of the entire application will become very iminent. Amy: The last hearing where we stated that design interpretation of the code and the city Attorney's interpretation of the code that the new ROW across Charlie Marqusee's property is not in violation of the non-conforming section of the code. And therefore there does not need to be any kind of property exchange or lot line adjustment for that property for a road going across Charlie Marqusee's property. The Planning Office feels that this application does have sufficient information and where sufficient information has not been provided in a level of detail, we have conditions of approval that require that that level of detail be submitted and reviewed prior to City Council review. There were no further public comments and Welton closed this portion of the hearing. Roger: I have some problems with item #10 that I think we should re-word in such a way to take into consideration in effect the on site re-design. It is my understanding that what we came up with was that we not be at odds with our road standards. Was there anything in there that would be in non-compliance with our road standards? For example the T intersection. Kim: What we determined at our site visit was that Bob Felsburg was going to respond to the proposed sketches and at that time we were going to make double sure that he was going to run the grade and some of the other things. And what you are saying is that this 9 PZM4.16.91 #1 doesn't apply at this point because you have done some field work-- Roger: It is the statement of the T intersection because we have gone beyond the T intersection. The proposed re-design--just take out the T at this point. Perry Harvey: I think when we had a meeting with Amy and Kim and Chuck what we had discussed was some language in that design standard area it talks about street rights of way will be dedicated to the city at a width acceptable to the city Engineer. What we talked about was more general language which would say that road designs and street ROW widths would be acceptable to the City Engineer. I think that applies in this too. Kim: I think so. Amy: This area are your SPA variations either variations from subdivision requirements in the code. So we want to make sure that we know areas which may be a little bit different from that which is required in subdivision regulations. But we also want to insure that all safety and site line issues are satisfied and that is why we put the general condition that it has to be designed to the acceptability of the City Engineer. Roger: Additionally I have the 8th st connect. We have basically 2 alignments and I don't know if it is whether we should discuss those and make a recommendation for one or the other alignments. A Welton: We basically agreed with your compromise solution with A.J. at the last meeting. MOTION Roger: I move to include the subdivision improvements and design standards in the resolution as amended. Jasmine seconded the motion with all in favor. Ramona Markalunas made some remarks at this point which were not distinguishable on the tape. Kim: What the SPA requires is approval of the final development plan. Are you confused between that and the platting requirement that results from subdivision? Amy: We are approving the final development plan that was submitted and modified during the hearings on the application. There are no plats at this time. 10 PZM4.16.91 Collins: What Ramona is saying is this resolution which is 20 some pages is only available--I picked mine up about a half hour ago. And you go into a lot of very technical questions and issues within this. Yet no one in the public hearing-none of the citizens-have had a copy of this so they could look at it and at least be abreast with the Commission in your discussions. Wel ton: Well, they weren't in our boxes until yesterday afternoon. As soon as they were available to us which was as soon as they came off the zerox machine it was available to the public. Amy: There is no requirement for us to have the resolution out before the public comes in. Normally what we would do is have the Planning commission vote and then we come back with the resolution which codifies their vote on all of this. In order to try and make this process more understandable we try to take what they have said and put it all in one package so that they can review it and look at it that way. That is where we are now. Collins: The purpose of the public hearing is to give the citizens an opportunity to respond to whatever is brought before a governing body. And when you bring forth something and the public has not had an opportunity to review this then certainly they are at a loss to respond in a proper fashion. And this is the same thing with the application. There is a great deal of information there as there is in this resolution. And to give this out a half an hour or 24 hours, a couple of days before the meeting I think puts the people who come to the public hearing at a distinct disadvantage. Welton: All of this information has been available in one form or another for a long, long time. And 2/3rds of the resolution is a direct result of the discussions of the meeting last week and the week prior to that. The items that we are trying to get through right now are the tail end items that were really not threshold or crucial items in the beginning and we can get back on track the result of these last items then we can start over at the beginning of the resolution and if we do find anything that is really a new revelation then we will have something to discuss. But I haven't found anything that is new and terribly different in the resolution. Ramona: I would like to raise an objection to the way the public has been informed throughout this project. I would also like to see somewhere in this room a plat or a map or a design map or whatever you call it that we can review. Harvey: Just for the record this masterplan map was available all during the process. The conceptual submission map was available. 11 PZM4.16.91 The only meaningful difference between this and the final is location of the rehearsal facility which has in fact moved during the process. This is a result directly from the masterplanning process and everything that flowed through conceptual and flowed through final went through the public hearing process and the masterplan. And I don't think there is any information that is missing to anyone in the public who wants it. Welton: There has been available more maps and more drawings and more pictures of this than anything I have seen in 14 years. So please don't tell me that you are naive as to the graphic representations to this because it has been available since this process has started. We have a motion on the floor and we have a second on variations from subdivision requirements. Everyone voted in favor of the motion. SPECIAL REVIEW FOR PARKING Kim: The applicant is requesting review for parking in an academic zone for the parcel that contains the non-profit users that zone district requires special review of any parking within that zone district. There are no minimum parking requirements established in the code. Page 17 of the resolution regarding parking in the zone district there are 3 conditions regarding special review for parking. Richard: Does the bike program come in under this part here? Kim: The traffic mitigation plan is that which establishes the requirement to have rental bikes available. Richard: In the memorandum from the Consortium on page 2 they are talking about delaying the bike program until everything else is done. That does not sit well with me. I think they should implement at least part of it as soon as possible at the beginning. Harvey: There are 2 parts to the bike program. This for the MAA there is bike storage which is proposed when that lot is re- worked. The other part of it is the availability of bikes for the lodge guests and how that dovetails in. Richard: And you are going to incorporate that in the parking structure? Harvey: Right. 12 PZM4.16.91 Richard: I would like to see some kind of interim plan included in that. Fred smith: I think that is fair. Amy: We will be discussing the traffic mitigation plan and the bike program at the beginning of the resolution. Welton asked for public comment of the special review of parking in an academic zone. There was none and he closed this portion of the public hearing. MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion to approve the section of the resolution for special review of parking. Richard: I move to approve the special review for parking in an academic zone with the 3 conditions as presented in the resolution. Bruce seconded the motion with all in favor. GMOS EXEMPTION FOR SPECIAL PUBLIC FACILITIES Kim: The applicant is requesting units which would allow for any of the non-profit users within the Meadows SPA to be considered for Growth Management Exemption both for profits and mitigation of their development and non-profit users. On page 21 there is the statement recommending to the Council approval of the GMQS Exemption and for profits mitigation for the facilities specific to the Aspen Institute and Music Associates of Aspen. This is broken down into 2 specific requests. One regarding the Institute facility and on your agenda describes lodge, health club, tennis facilities and the restaurant reception facility and the next category is MAA facilities which are the expansion of the tent the back stage area and the construction of the rehearsal facility Staff is in support of the Institute uses as far as the growth management exemption as well as the MAA facilities. Staff still maintains the tennis shop facility and restrooms need to be re- studied and reduced in size and pull them back from the roadway and also that we have included a condition in the SPA requirements the applicant needs to verify that the expansion does qualify as an insubstantial amendment under the SPA regulations and that is new condition #29. 13 PZM4.16.91 At this point the applicant has re-spaced the new location of the rehearsal hall at HPC's request and comments from last week and also the commission's discussion from last week when the Commission voted 3 to 1 to also indorse HPC I S recommendation to move the location farther north on the east side of the music tent. I hope that all of the P&Z members have had a chance to go out and look at that new staking situation. Planning staff supports this new location even stronger than the original east side location. And there are 3 main reasons. One is that the new location and reduced mound structure does open up more views toward Independence Pass and the town side of Aspen. #2, more usable lawn area on the east has been made available now by virtue of moving it farther to the north. The 3rd is that it in fact increases the service access for the MAA and allows them to share some service access facilities from the parking lot at the Institute side. Roger: I would add a #4 in that it reduces the visual impact from adjacent property owners on Roaring Fork Drive. I am just adding #4 that it reduces the visual impact to adjacent property owners along Roaring Fork Drive. Amy: We would like the Commission to make a motion with respect to the GMQS exemption as a recommendation to City Council that the facility be exempt from the Growth Management Quota and mitigation required by virtue of When it gets into the location of the rehearsal facility, you can do that separately. Roger: I think we need to be a bit more specific as to what mitigation of the requirements they are exempt from. There are some mitigation requirements they are not exempt from. I was confused by this when I read it. Gideon: On condition #29 which says the applicant shall verify that the expansion to the restaurant building qualifies as an insubstantial amendment under the SPA amendment section. The process for insubstantial amendments as we put in our letter to you is designated to handle a technical or engineering consideration not anticipated during your approval process. The Planning Office made the finding that at conceptual SPA you were able to look at the change the sites if you wanted. We feel that enclosing a deck at the restaurant is something that we have the ability to ask for and that we can't--it is not an insubstantial amendment. We would like you to make a finding during this process that it is appropriate for us to be able to enclose the deck area and that that should be the finding and that we could do that because we can' t--we are not through the SPA process right now. So we should be able to amend this right now in the actual approval for the SPA for you to find that it is 14 PZM4.16.91 appropriate for us to enclose the deck and for that to be exempt from GMQS. Welton: On that last paragraph of page 21 in the resolution, you know how crazy we get when we get stuff shoved in our face at the last minute. Harvey: I just want to enter this into the record. Welton: The last paragraph of page 21 is nice but it is not as thorough as we have just been discussing and particularly is not cover1ng Gideon's point that you can't really approve the restaurant expansion as an insubstantial amendment but that it has to be part of the GMQS exemption as a part of the essential public facility. I would like to see this portion amended to be more complete and to make that determination that these are the essential public facilities and this is a way of approving it. Amy: During the masterplanning process the masterplan states that the Institute facility, the lodging facilities and the music facilities in terms of the rehearsal hall and the expansion of the tent would--the Council in the masterplan said they would exempt these from growth management and the mitigation. At the time of the masterplan and at the time of conceptual review there was no mention of any expansion to the restaurant. So the first time that we read about the restaurant was during the final review and it is for that reason that we are requiring that it qualify as insubstantial amendment to the SPA because at the time of the masterplan we said you can make minor changes to your square footage if you fall within the requirement of insubstantial amendment. So from the staff's perspective we feel that if this indeed did qualify for insubstantial amendment we have calculated it and we feel that it does. It is not a huge increase in square footage that it would also be appropriate for the exemption. That the exemption in this case is only for the facilities that are being proposed by the Institute and the MAA and nothing else. We can certainly list those facilities out and the square footage in the resolution if that would help. Welton: I don't think that is necessary. But just that we are familiar as to what we are exempting and what we are including in that exemption. 15 PZM4.16.91 Richard: During this whole discussion on mitigation exemption was the discussion included of the potential use of the Institute lodging facilities on a commercial basis? Amy: That was discussed with City Council and the Planning Commission during the masterplanning. Richard: I have a problem exempting them for half a year commercially. That gives them an advantage over other lodging facilities. So I would suggest that the language on page 15 be amended to provide that these facilities are not used on a commercial basis--on an academic use but not for a commercial use. Welton: That puts the whole process back to square one. It has been an exercise in civics that we can all put in our scrap book but it is not their application. Jasmine: I am inclined to agree with Richard's point and I would feel much more comfortable if we could divide it into 2 things. It is one thing to exempt them from growth management competition and another thing to exempt them from mitigation. And I really don't think it is unreasonable to bring this to 2 separate aspects. I support one but not support the other. Welton: That is not the application they are making. Amy: city Council will make the final decision on exemptions. It is the Planning Commission's recommendation. Welton: Would you like to see the resolution include a minority point of view that the Institute facilities can only be used as facilities for non-profits and not to be used for commercial use to offset their expense. Richard: I said if they use it commercially they should mitigate. Jasmine: The point has to do with mitigation, not the use--the amount of mitigation. Wel ton: Would somebody make a motion one way or another that either exempts or recommends to City Council GMQS exemption for exceptional public facilities for the Institute facilities that being the lodge as essential facilities and restaurant reception area and exempting MAA facilities attempt expansion of the rehearsal hall. And that is an exemption from GMQS and an exemption from mitigation associated with GMQS application. Amy: The resolution states that the Planning Commission recommend to City Council an exemption with the GMQS and the mitigation in 16 PZM4.16.91 an academic zone district. As you recall we previously talked about a code amendment which allows City Council to exempt non- profit lodging to academic zone district from the mitigation and the competition required under GMQS. SO that sets the stage. You have already discussed that. Now what you are doing is deciding that this particular project is going to make you want to recommend under that code amendment be exempt from both the GMQS and the mitigation. And that is what is stated in the resolution. Welton asked for public comment. There was none. Gideon: I would like to remind the P&Z that when this proposal first came in a number of years ago and the free market lots that were created that were going to be the economic generator at that particular time there was talk about not having the restaurant operate possibly in the winter time. When the Council made the decision that we were not going to allow the free market residential to pay for all the improvements for the Hadid organization then it fell upon the Aspen Institute to raise the money and to run the operation. Based upon that particular scenario understanding that if we have to raise $10 million to renovate and run it the Council made the decision, and it was appropriate at that time, for it to operate both in the winter time as well as the summer time because it was not possible for the Aspen Institute to take on a $10 million dollar renovation and not be able to generate income in the winter time. When you have a lodge out there you also need a restaurant. As Woody said time the restaurant has traditionally been used. As a matter of fact when the Copper Kettle was out there it was twice as busy as it is right now. So that is an integral part of this whole masterplanning scheme is to allow this thing to operate year round so the non-profits don't have to lose money in the operation of this thing. MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion to recommend to City Council GMQS exemption for essential public facilities and in that motion either add exemption of mitigation or specifically don I t add mitigation for exemption. Jasmine: I will move to recommend exemption from GMQS competition as essential public facility for the Institute and MAA facilities without any mention of mitigation. That would include the restaurant facility from the competition. Mari seconded the motion. 17 PZM4.16.91 Welton: Is there any further discussion? Everyone voted in favor of the motion. Welton: Opposed? No answer. (I put this in because there was later discussion as to whether Welton asked for opposition vote on this motion. It is on the tape) Welton: OK. Second motion. Jasmine: Second motion. Actually I don't have a second motion because I don't want to recommend that they be exempted from mitigation. Welton: Well, make a motion that they not be exempted from mitigation. Jasmine: No, no. My point is that I personally don't feel from a land use and planning commission standpoint that this would be appropriate. However this is a situation in which there are more things involved than just land use issue. And I think it is more appropriate for city Council to make a determination as to any mitigation with regard to all the other facets that are involved in the Meadows. Welton: What we have just done is adopted that portion of the resolution because of a lack of mention of mitigation. Jasmine: That is my position. To separate it into 2 things. I am not comfortable with mitigation. My feeling is that it would be appropriate to have city Council do it. That is why I wanted it separated. Mari: Jasmine, would you feel comfortable recommending exemption from mitigation for certain parts of the SPA--certain uses? Welton: This is awfully far down the road to get into a threshold discussion. Jasmine: It is not a threshold discussion. Welton: It was a discussion that happened a year ago. 18 PZM4.16.91 MOTION Richard: I will make a motion. Sara: I would like to make the original motion. Welton: We have already made a motion and passed it. Sara: You didn't ask for negative-- Welton: Yes I did. Sara: No you didn't. Welton: Let the record show that-- Sara: I do not want them--I don't want them to mitigate. Welton: The mitigation was never mentioned in the motion. Sara: Yes, she did. Welton: No. It was not mentioned in the motion. It was only to exempt from competition as an essential facility for the MAA. Sara: I want them exempted from mitigation. Welton: Would you make a motion? MOTION Sara: Yes. I would like to make the original motion and recommend approval for cash exemption and mitigation for essential public facilities. Mari: We already had a motion for exemption for essential public facilities. We just did that. Welton: We have already done the Sara: I think it is a stronger motion to have them both. Welton: But we have already voted on--if you make that motion to recommend to city Council--let me try to word it for you. I would entertain a motion to recommend to city council to exempt the Institute facility and the MAA facilities from mitigations normally associated with GMQS. Sara: I so move. 19 PZM4.16.91 Bruce seconded the motion. Welton asked for discussion. Roger: I can see where Jasmine and Richard are coming from. And my quandary here is if it is a commercial restaurant facility there are some mitigations you don't want them to be exempt from. But not all. My problem is determining which mitigation we are talking about on this issue. For an expansion of a commercial restaurant there is housing aspect of it that they would have to mitigate. mitigations are there that we are talking about? If determined maybe I can vote for this motion. Except expansion of the restaurant as a given and then go on obviously a What other we get this for minimal with it. Amy: other typical mitigation would be for open space. That is about it. So other aspects for mitigation really don't come into play here. If we are accepting traffic mitigation then that is it. Welton: Are we talking about only the expansion for the restaurant or are you talking about mitigations for the tent, the rehearsal hall, tennis. Roger: It is the commercial restaurant aspect of it. However if those are the mitigation items I think those are primarily covered by the remainder So I can support this motion. Bruce: Well, I seconded the motion and I support it for the following reasons: #1 the initial assumption is that these are essential community facil i ties. I think they are essential community assets as well. I make arguments all day long, Richard, about the lodging standpoint of it because I am in that business and I don't like somebody to have an unfair advantage. But I think these institutions and these facilities are so essential to this community that I am willing to take it on the chin. I am not going to be a NIMBY on this issue. I am willing for these institutions to get on with their business and make this community a better place. That is the reason I am supporting this. Roger: Thank you and I concur 100%. Welton: We have a motion on the floor and a second. Amy: I want to make a point of clarification. The code currently allows city council to exempt essential public facilities from the growth management competition and mitigation. However, it does not allow City Council to exempt the housing requirements. So there is already a provision in the code which says that the Council can 20 PZM4.16.91 make determination for an essential public facility that it be exempt from mitigation requirements that are GMQS and from competition. But it specifically talked about housing. What we are amending in this code language is to allow city Council to amend all mitigation if it is an essential public facility. Welton: There is a motion on the floor to recommend exemption from mitigation from the GMQS requirements. Roll call vote: Sara Garton, yes, Peyton, no, Roger yes. Richard Compton, no, Bruce Kerr, yes, Mari Hunt, yes, Jasmine Tygre, no, Welton Anderson Motion carries 4 to 3. Welton: There is wording in the resolution concerning the location of the rehearsal hall. It indicates that the majority of the Commission favors the easterly location. Although not a clear enough majority to win a motion to recommend the eastern location. Does the commission want to take another vote? MOTION Welton: I will entertain a motion to approve the revised location of the rehearsal facility to the east side of the music tent more northerly than the original application as currently staked on the site. Bruce: I so move. Sara seconded the motion. ?: Has anybody ever considered the music campus. Welton: There are rehearsal facilities at the campus and I got an anonymous telephone call from somebody saying "Why don't they put the rehearsal facility in the Marolt cafeteria?" There is a rehearsal facility there too. ?: I am talking about there are 2 down there. mumble school down there. But there is also another large parcel out there where this building would be totally-- nobody would ever see it. You are going to take away that whole meadow over there. There are people that go there every Sunday- -trust me--I live right across the street--they park allover my lawn, they walk allover my yard. You are taking away that-- 21 PZM4.16.91 Welton: We had an hour plus of discussion devoted to this last week. Husband of?: This is a hundred year decision. This building is going to be here for 100 years! Welton: The opportunity to make this final decision rested, rests, and shall rest with the City Council. They have already made up their minds that the wildlife and whatever foxes and gophers on the west side are more important than what is on the east side. And the people. ? Shriever?: There are Fox in there. There are people who sit there very Sunday afternoon and listen to the concerts. There are kids that run around that field. You are putting a building up that has no business being in this neighborhood. It is the only accessible lawn in the neighborhood. It is a commercial building. It doesn't belong there. Have you ever, ever considered thought of putting it down right at the Music School where their property is? Welton: That is not what is being presented or applied for. ?: Excuse me. But if you want to talk to people that come up there and sit there and picnic with their kids on sunday afternoon. Have you talked to them? Welton: We talked to them for an hour--a couple of hours last week and they talked to HPC for 3 hours. ?: No. I don't think you did. I was out of town. (much laughter from rest of public here) Welton: The forum has been sent. We have gotten stacks of mail. Thank you for your comments. There is a motion on the floor. I will entertain a motion to withdraw that motion because it was voted on last week. It was finally decided last week. I brought it up because it was a last- minute decision last week. It is not in our hands. Ultimately it is in the city Council's hands. We are only a recommending body. Sara: Then recommend it to them, Welton. Welton: I will tell you what is going to happen right now. You are going to have 3 people recommend it, 4 people to recommend it to be on the east side, 2 people recommend it to be on the west side and 1 person recommend it to go to Hell. 22 PZM4.16.91 Lilly?: with no public input or anything? Welton: with a considerable amount of public input, Lilly. Roger: I will withdraw my motion in order to re-open the public hearing concerning this issue. However I have got to advise the public that my attitude last week hasn't changed about this issue. It has basically been determined through a masterplanning process that the City Council basically oversaw and adopted. As far as I am concerned if it gets switched from the east side to the west side it will be a City Council decision and not mine. My decision right now is that the best place for it is in that northeast portion where it has been moved to. That is on the basis of what has been presented before us. Public input is very nice but I don't think it is germane to the issues we are covering. If you want it moved to the west side, play this letter game with the city Council because I don't think it is appropriate for us to change the site location. As far as I am concerned the public had plenty of opportunity to input this information to the City Council in their masterplanning process. I was certainly at a lot of those meetings and everyone else certainly had the opportunity. Welton: (Trying to calm the lady in white) Please. I want to _~ see it changed to the west side. I think it would be a disaster if it ruins the little pasture on the east side. We have had a lot of public input. There is no new information on this past last week's information. Sara withdrew her second to the motion. Welton then re-opened the public hearing. Robert Hart, Music Festival: We have obviously been active in this process as well as with the City Council. And a lot of the concerns that are being addressed by the public are actually just not true. We have got a lot of misconceptions out there. Harry Teague, our architect has spent a week Showing exactly where the new location is. The location that was certified by this body last week. The location that was recommended by the Historic Preservation Committee. The location is north and east of the tent. I think that if you would allow Harry the time to show you where this new location is, to show you that the eastern lawn seating is still maintained, to show you that the views of Independence Pass are maintained, to show you that the height of the roof is lower \ than the single family homes across the street and to show you the 23 PZM4.16.91 kind of view plains we are talking about and the increased lawn seating that perhaps a lot of the concerns of the public here--if they are really concerns about eastern lawn seating and if they are really concerned about views of Independence pass--they have been addressed by HPC's modification of the site and building. Harry Teague then made use of slides and drawings of the site for the rehearsal facility and it's relationship to the tent, the neighborhood, the pristine meadow, the unimpeded views of Independence Pass, Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, Highlands peak, Shadow Mountain, Snowmass Peak and the height of the facility in relation to the surroundings. He brought out that the only vegetation that would have to be removed would be a bush by putting the facility at this site. After examining all of this I have a very strong opinion that I think it is better that the facility be located on the east site. I think it is a much better site. A substantial part of the lawn on the east side is unaffected by the facility at this site. This territory in here all becomes new lawn seating. This path here moves outside these trees so that the area in between those trees and the tent is all dedicated to lawn seating that does not have a pathway running through it. I think this greatly improves the lawn seating. This is our only possible service access for the facility if it were to go on the western side. This path that runs around the outside for a length of approximately 100ft would have to be used both for pedestrian and vehicular access to the facility. The other thing that happens if we move this building to the east side this particular section of the tent which is garbage etc will move over and be contained within the berm on the east side. This doesn't work on the west side because the west side is too far from that end of the tent. Some of you have come because of the adds in the paper that say we are removing all outdoor public seating around the tent. Be reassured that everything represented in green on this board is, in fact, lawn seating that will be available outside the tent removing this path here from this location out to there so that this particular section in here is going to be enhanced. One of the things that has come up is kids and Moms. I want to put that one to rest. This is all Mom location. You can see several Moms here. Over here are kids rolling down the back side of the berm with their yells and screams and don't disturb the people in the audience or the musicians in the tent. The Moms can see the kids. The kids can roll down the berm. The musicians 24 PZM4.16.91 don't hear that and the Moms hear the music. I think we can have the best of all worlds with this. (much applause for this point) One other thing that was mentioned vegetation. The only vegetation that is at this site is this one bush. was removing existing removed by the facility Jeffrey Evans: (to Welton) First of congratulate you. This is your last night for your time on this Commission. all I would like to and thank you very much (much applause) This is a good example of how tough this job can be and we appreciate it. I want to get really back down to basics. What we are really trying to do here is to trade an environment for some of the finest classical musicians in the world who come and ply their craft. The one thing that has interfered with that over the last 15 years is the ever increasing noise of the neighborhood around Roaring Fork Rd and the access road to that rear parking lot. When I first heard of this particular location for this facility, I was immediately enthused because I thought it had been planned as a noise buffer to keep down the amount of noise from the surrounding neighborhood. I think that someone like David Finkle playing a solo celo and having a dog bark, a horn honk, a motorcycle and a pickup truck with a bad muffler interrupting the same piece of music and then finding out that someone' s view from a lawn can somehow take precedence over solving that problem--it makes me want to throw up. I went out there today. I looked at the flags. I looked at that top-most flag at the highest point of that building. I looked where it was in relation to the Lauder home and I think it became very evident what is going on here. This is NIMBYism of the most blatant and most shameless form. It is one of those times when you should nod your heads and say "Thank you for the input" go ahead and vote the way you were going to vote and move this process forward. Les Holst, member of HPC: Aspen is a historic resource. What happens with a historic resource when you nibble at it you lose your resource. What we have been doing is we have been nibbling 25 PZM4.16.91 for years and there is a point where you drive a nail and you destroy your resource and that is what is happening here. If we can't learn--look at the Ritz. It is going to be the disaster that everybody told everybody it was going to be. Three years from now they are going to be renting those rooms for $30 apiece. Somebody is going to aquire that place for 50 cents on the dollar and what is going to happen is half the small lodges are going to go. They are going to be replaced by 3-story townhouses or whatever. And we will lose Aspen as a historic resource. It is ridiculous to say that by destroying this space out here we are going to bring better musicians. We have had the best musicians earth has to offer for 15 years. I sat on an airplane once with Itzaak Perlman and asked him why he loves to come here and he said he just loves the whole process. He loves the children and the dogs and everything. That is why these people are coming here. The reason why we have all these committees is if one makes a mistake, another one can rectify it. If another one makes a mistake the third one can rectify it. The HPC made a serious mistake recommending this northeast situation. It shouldn't be on this site. It should be down where the campus is. Historically people establish what works. And you don't mess with it. And that is what has happened here. It has been established. It works. Anything that happens to this is going to be negative. And I think it is going to be throwing out the baby with the bath water. The MAA is going to suffer. We are going to lose the musicians we got. The people aren't going to come. It is just a natural disaster. It behooves us to look at this and don't let it get by if there is any doubt at all. The information the City Council got when they made a decision, well, that was wrong. And it is your chance to rectify this. Harry Schreiber: I have to agree with everything Mr. Holst has said. Is there any mechanism within what is going on today since there appears to be some serious conflict either among the committee itself to reconsider and to restudy what is going on? I have listened to what is going on in the room. I have looked at the pictures and there were no pictures of the western site as to the views to the western site. And the elevation and the way the pictures were taken--I went over and took some pictures and the elevation of the reflect what you see when you are sitting 26 PZM4.16.91 on the ground. But at this point I see all this as superfluous. Is there any way that this committee has the ability to restudy and rethink this location? Either to the eastern site, the western site or to some other site altogether? Bill Poss, Chairman of Historic Preservation Committee: I thought it would be important that I come down. I respect Les's input. He happens to be one of the opposition. But the HPC did--the members voted in a majority in favor of the east side location. We found that it met our standards, that it retained the perception of the tent--by moving it to the north. We found it retained the perception of the rehearsal facility moving it to the north and retained the perception of the tent and Meadow feeling that everybody is trying to keep. We think the applicant has done a fantastic job. We also asked them to reduce the height of the facility and to restudy possibly reducing the mound. I think if you were to go out there and see the siting you will find that the lower roof allows the tent to become the dominant feature, retain it's historic nature and reducing the mound keeps this facility in a much more unit scale in that open space setting. I think you will find that this newer location does not obstruct any of the view lines that everybody is concerned about and I think Harry has proven that with his slides. I think the big question that everybody asks that the HPC did study is that if it works so well on the east, why doesn't it work on the west? From an historic standpoint I think the committee members found that it does not meet it's standards of compatibility on the west. If you look at the Meadows the historic campus feeling keeps the buildings on it's perimeter with plenty of space between those buildings. I think you will also find historically that each building sits on the landscape and keeps it's own identity because it has this trait. I think the applicant has done a good job of relating this facility functionally to the tent and by keeping it on the east side it really allows it to work in a very historic setting. And I think the majority of the members found that to be the case. Lilly Garfield: If per chance you do stay with the site that you have right now designated, would you consider the time change of when the concerts would be performed? Welton: I think that is certainly something to be considered. That is something the MAA needs to look at seriously. 27 PZM4.16.91 ?: First of all the western seating location does more than compensate for any loss of seating on the eastern side. The total amount of lawn seating will increase by 50%--a little over 19,000sqft to almost 30,000sqft. So there is going to be plenty of lawn space. A lot of the western seating is shaded by very large Aspen trees. There will be additional planting to provide additional shade so it will be shaded from the sun and also the westerly winds hit that side of the tent first. ?: The whole emphasis has been to the eastern site. You never made them do anything about lowering the size of the building for the westerly site. You did a good job of looking at the easterly site. Now let's take a good hard look at the westerly site. Ron Austin: I represent the "Friends of the Lawn". And I want to complement Harry on his presentation of the slides because what he did from where I was sitting is he took all of his pictures from the tent location right here heading east to show the structure and it's minimum impact. We are talking about the people who like the lawn, their perspective is out here. It is not in the tent looking back. On the other side when he took his pictures he went out into the area that would be the west location of the building and took the pictures. I think that was a very substantial distortion of what the impact is here. If you would look at this berm location- somebody last week said You are going to feel like you are in canyons here with all this big structure. That is exactly the objection. This impacts tremendously the people who want to be on this side on the lawn. with respect to the comments about the service, we all know that the service for the tent right now comes in this location. So when we are talking about taking that same direction for service for this rehearsal facility I defy anyone to convince me that there are going to be hundreds of pedestrians on that service entry at the same time a couple of trucks are there delivering drums and pianos. So the impact is still here on the lawn on the east. Sure, they have lessened it but why should we talk about mitigating and lessening the impacts? Let's talk about moving it over here on the west where it doesn't have those impacts. It doesn't impact the lawn, people on the east. It doesn't impact the neighbors. It doesn't impact the views from 3rd and Gillespie. Instead of mitigating, let's eliminate the impact. Welton asked if there was further public comment. There was none and he closed this portion of the hearing. 28 PZM4.16.91 MOTION Welton: There was a motion on the floor that was withdrawn. The motion was to approve the location of the rehearsal facility on the eastern side of the music tent and in a more northerly direction. Roger: I so move. Mari seconded the motion. Welton asked for further discussion from the commission. Richard: For me this issue is not so much obstruction of views as domination. I still believe that once all that dirt and roof goes in there that the eye will go more to the new performance facility than to the classic tent. As far as my own sense of aesthetics go standing over here on the west side it is completely surrounded on 3 sides by trees already. And it would be almost invisible except directly from the south. I think it fits in better to the landscape there. Also I would feel better about having a valley on this side than on this side. And there is not really any more obstruction of views on this side than on the other side as far as I can see from Harry's pictures. Question for the applicants: The way that the zoning is drawn on the map the wilderness preservation comes around here and leaves substantial area there out of it. Now I am wondering if the desire is to keep that for open space why isn't that extended down or isn't that designated open space? If it is designated academic it seems there is a potential for a new Institute building there rather than the MAA building there. I would like to hear from the applicant if they would be willing to designate that open space and if the rehearsal hall goes on the east. Gideon: First of all, Richard, the location that you have referred to is not the location that is acceptable to the Aspen Institute. The Aspen Institute is not willing to give the land in that area that you talked about nestled and tucked in. On the original masterplan on the western location as shown was more equal distant which brings it right out into this particular prominent area. So the concept that somehow it is going to get tucked in there is inappropriate. If it goes anywhere it is going to go somewhere in this particular area without the benefit of the shading of trees. So I just want to clear up that misconception. That is not where it is going to go if it goes to the west. They were asked to stake a location on the west. No definitive location was picked and so the MAA chose that. 29 PZM4.16.91 Richard: I have a hard time with that. It seems like a misrepresentation. You didn't answer my question. Is the Institute committed to not building in that site in the future? Gideon: It is designated as academic because we didn't know what was going to go over there. So open space designation may be appropriate if that is left and it goes on the other location. Richard: Well, if this is the portion designated academic and you are saying that no other rehearsal hall will have to go out here and not designated academic it seems to be a basic contradiction in your statements. Gideon: No, in the masterplan there were 2 locations shown for the rehearsal hall. We are saying that that is the position of the Institute would prefer if it goes on the western location. There has to be an allocation in change if that is picked. Everyone seems to forget that in the conceptual SPA the eastern location was selected. That is where all the time and energy has been put over there. We haven't been addressing the western location. If that happens then we will allocate which is appropriate for academic which is appropriate for open space and which is appropriate for WP. Sara: I would like to hear if the Physics Institute has a position. George stranahan, Aspen Center of Physics: We support the rehearsal facility. We have supported it on the eastern site from the beginning and we continue to support it there. Roger: I have not heard anything more today that has changed my mind. I think the location of this rehearsal hall was picked in the planning process which had plenty of opportunity for public input to that location. Not only that I happen to believe that the eastern location is much better for this facility mostly from a service viewpoint. I think the applicant has done an excellent job and I really support moving it to the north. I was hoping even more to the north. I have no problems with this location right now. I think at this point it should be moved. It is my opinion that city council decided the location. They are the ones who decided that it should be moved. Richard: One question for the architect. Roger just brought up the point of the building being even further north. What constraints are there on not moving another 20 or 30 yards? 30 PZM4.16.91 Teague: We would be forced to eliminate a lot of vegetation at that point. We wouldn I t be able to save the trees that are currently there. That is our primary reason. Richard: We can grow new trees. We can't create new land area. Wel ton: I am in agreement with the first part of Richard I s statement that the western side is the preferable side for a lot of the reasons that were enumerated by the public. The motion is to approve the location as shown to the east side. Roll call vote: Sara, yes, Richard, no, Bruce, yes, Mari, yes, Roger, yes, Jasmine, no, Welton, no. Motion carries 4 to 3. WHEREAS STATEMENTS Amy: First of all, Perry Harvey has submitted a letter into the record that Planning Staff has not had a chance to review. Of those things that we agree with or what we are recommending a language change. But those things that we have not had a chance to discuss we may want to commit that as part of the record to City Council and have them discuss it at Council. I will start with the WHEREAS statements. We will amend the Whereas statement that talk about the rehearsal facility to the special vote that was taken tonight. Second we will amend the GMQS scores and the bonus points based on our adding up the Planning Commission scores and the individual score. So the numbers may change once we are able to add up those scores. The 4th Whereas statement the applicant has asked for a minor wording change to reflect the fact that the application for residential growth management allocation was submitted by Savannah and approved by the other non-profits. We will make that language change. On page 3 the very first sentence--the applicants have requested that the language be modified slightly to reflect that the HPC was not recommending that the rehearsal facility be reduced in size but that the berm be reduced in size. We will make that change. 31 PZM4.16.91 CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL Amy: The first condition is asking for the applicant to submit a detailed construction timeline. This is similar to how we treat other large projects. We do allow applicants to amend if they run into unforeseeable problems. We are also asking that that construction timeline requests that the extension of 7th st to Meadows Rd be complete prior to building permit being issued for West Meadows. Harvey: The construction time table issue for the Institutions depends on the fund raising. So there has got to be some kind of recognition that that unknown factor. In terms of the extension of 7th st the Institute currently plans on beginning construction on some of the lodge buildings both new and upgraded in late August or right after Labor Day of this summer. The road cannot be started until after the music and the Institute programs are over with. What we have said in the memorandum I submitted to you that there will be some construction traffic on the existing Meadows Rd because the Institute is going to start the same time we currently anticipate starting the road. We want to minimize that impact but to say that we have to complete Meadows Rd then you will get no construction this winter and everything will be delayed for an entire year because the Institute can't build during prime building season when they are running their programs. Welton: It seems like an impediment to efficient phasing of the construction to make everything hinge on the completion of that road. Richard: Or we could amend it to say "Construction on the road shall begin as soon as possible in the Fall of '91 and as soon as it is done, traffic will be " Roger: Or just include it in the timeline. That gives you the process. Fred Smith: We will submit a timeline to city Council and discuss it at that time. Welton: And the timeline shall include the completion of the new Meadows Rd--Upon completion of all construction traffic will be restricted to the new Meadows Rd. Page 5, #3. Roger: I have a comment on #3. I think we should review it one year after completion and then every 2 years after that. 32 PZM4.16.91 Amy: The applicant has expressed a concern that we not evaluate traffic during construction. staff feels that we should be evaluating the traffic during construction because of the 3 year construction period. We feel those commitments were made during the masterplanning process. There is another concern about annual reviews and will they go on forever. Our feeling is that we didn't want to put an ending date to review if something should be reviewed on a continuing basis as long as the facility is in operation. However we are not adverse to adding language that the city council would waive the annual reviews if they don't see a need to continue. Roger: I am for adding language that City council may terminate the reviews if they are no longer needed. Richard: Presumably the purpose of the review is to check on the effectiveness of the traffic mitigation plan and I would say that once that has been established as effective and unless there are changes in it there is no need for reviews. Up until that point as long as the traffic mitigation plan is in development and in the process of being implemented then they need to be traffic reviewed. MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion regarding the applicant's concern about checking the traffic during construction. Richard: As I understand it construction will be fall, winter and spring and we are mainly concerned with traffic during summer time. Perry: That would be important if that was the issue. It doesn't state in here when this traffic count is to be done. For the purposes of comparison do you want counts in July and August? That is a lot easier than doing counts every month of the year. Amy: Those are details that we would require at the time that the applicant--we just put in general parameters in the condition that there will be a review by staff and we will be requiring reviews. If there is extensive use of the facility at a lodging facility during the winter we may want to look at just that. Gideon: We will discuss that with Council. Amy: We will revise the resolution to add language reflecting the years 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 and language which City Council may terminate reviews no longer necessary. 33 PZM4.16.91 Welton: #4 on page 5. There were no problems with this. #5 on page 5. Perry: If we could add some language in there that talks about severe weather which obviously can delay a truck or circumstances beyond the control of the operator. I just want to cover the fact that if there are construction delays on 4-laning and everything else. And these guys are making their best efforts and occasionally they can't make it, it is sort of like-- Language to this affect was agreed to. #6. No problem. #7. No problem. #8. No problem. #9. No problem. #10. Roger: I am a little confused as to this easement for the trail ends between 7th st and the race track. Perry: We have got that on here and basically it is through that gap in the trees right at the end of 7th and it goes up and it is going to run along the eastern edge of that irrigation ditch. Roger: OK. Welton: Potable and irrigation water. #l2--drainage, design. #13. Amy: We have already made an interpretation that is consistent with the Building Dept so this provision for fire places is not in the Land Use Code--in the Environmental Health section of the code and we feel that there is a disagreement that they should appeal to the Clean Air Board and not to the Planning Office. But we have interpreted that this is one building under their application. Perry: Just to get this on the record I think Amy is wrong. That it is a zoning Code definition of what is an attached or detached dwell ing . Amy: It has been designed as one building. Perry: Would you give me a code interpretation. 34 PZM4.16.91 Amy: I sure can. Perry: OK. And would you also tell me what my appeal rights are to the Board of Appeals or to review by the city Attorney or by city Council because I feel that that is wrong. Amy: The intent of the regulation whether you agree with it or not was that they only wanted to allow 1 fireplace per building. They did not want to allow 1 fireplace per dwelling unit. The issue is is that a building and, yes, it is a building in the definition of our code. I think the concern is not the definition of building. The concern is the applicant might have 1 fireplace per dwelling unit and that is inconsistent with the Environmental Health Dept' s rules and regulations. It has nothing to do with the Planning Office. Perry: It is a condition of P&Z approval. So you guys are endorsing the fact of this. And it is my contention that those buildings 'are not attached. It is not a multi-family dwelling unit. We are replacing all the wood burning fireplaces with gas and we are entitled to 1 per unit. And I don't know if you guys want to let this pass this way. Whether you feel uncomfortable with this issue, whether this issue is something that I should take up with the Planning Director and not with this commission at this time. Do you want to eliminate this from your recommendations? The answer was "No". Roger: But isn't gas fireplaces exempt from this? Amy: I think there is a problem with them converting to gas. Gideon: There is a difference between gas fireplace and gas appliance. Welton: Fugitive #14. #15. No problem. Welton: #16. Fred Smith: We would like to raise an issue on #16. For those of you who are familiar with the area today, the stairs that go down to the pro shop leave immediately from the edge of the road. That building has always been very, very close to the road. It also has on top of the existing structure a balcony seating area that was designed originally by Fritz and the original architect. We have designed a structure, working with HPC, that maintains the scale 35 PZM4.16.91 that is there today and also maintains the image and the feel of the entrance to the Institute's lodging properties. with moving the stairway and the small landing back about 3 or 4ft off the roadway we have improved the situation that exists there today with respect to it's location to the road. Yet we have maintained that intimacy of the entrance experience going in there. There is also about a 5ft separation between the back wall of the Pro Shop and the tennis facility itself. That separation is there in order to naturally ventilate the parking garage. If we were to move the Pro Shop back, we would then lose the opportunity to naturally ventilate and then we would have to mechanically ventilate. One of the major issues that we have discussed throughout the process with yourselves, City Council and HPC is to stay out of impacting the race track. The eastern edges of those tennis courts are already bumped up against the counters 1 ope coming off of that ditch. Any additional movement to the east will require some cutting into the race track. We would request that this condition be eliminated and the Pro Shop be left as it is designed and approved by the HPC and as it has been reviewed by city Council. The idea of the rest room is that it is in the location that helps block or break up the linearity of design of the entire facility. Something that was requested by this particular board when we took it to city Council. We have also broken up the 2 buildings and have added a break wall so that when you are driving down Meadows Rd you don't see a single block structure. This was also reviewed by HPC and approved with this configuration. We would again request that it be left as it is. Welton: Does anybody have any objection to eliminating condition 16 altogether as per the applicant's request. Amy: The facilities are so close to the road and we just thought that they should be moved further back off the road. Welton: further think-- But if pushing it back involves pushing the tennis court into the race track then that's a tradeoff that I don't Amy: We weren't suggesting that. We were suggesting just 1 imi ting the size of the facility and limiting the height so it is less of a visual impact and having the building right up against the road. 36 PZM4.16.91 Fred: I ask you to turn to page 18, plate 18 which shows a little better graphically what we are talking about in terms of scale. The building itself is lower than the windscreens that form the edges of the tennis court. And again we are talking about a facility here that represents the scale of the building that is there today. And that was something that we were trying to imitate. This building square footage wise represents an awful lot more program than the old building did. All the existing building did was take care of tennis pro shop activities. The new building will be integral in our auto disincentive programs, our bike rental programs, cross country skiing in the winter, etc. We feel it is imperative to maintain the size of the building so that we can adequately provide for those programs which have been identified as important by everybody we have spoken to on it. MOTION Jasmine: I would move to strike condition #18. [ Mari seconded the motion with all in favor except Sara. Wel ton: # 17 is about ventilation for the parking garage. No problem. #18. Trail easements. No problem. #19. Efficiency measures. Perry: States that all energy efficiency measures represented in the GMQS application be implemented in the lodge and residential units. The GMQS application was specific for the residential units. That was the application was for the residential. And all of the representations in the GMQS will be put in covenants and will be put into the residential units. I don't know whether this was an oversight or whatever but we haven't done any kind of analysis as to applying those specific representations to the lodge building. And I have no idea as to the effect that is going to have but it seems to me that since the conceptual approval as a condition that energy efficiency be one of the primary goals throughout the development that this condition should rightly apply to the residential units but should not just be kind of slid over onto the lodge facilities when that wasn't the purpose of the GMQS and we really have no chance to look at it. Welton: Would anybody have any objection to eliminating the word "lodge" from the condition #19 with the understanding that the 37 PZM4.16.91 existing lodge units probably could never be brought up to energy efficient levels because they didn't apply when they were built. And any new lodge unit will be under the jurisdiction of current energy codes. Fred: We have absolutely no problems meeting the codes that are related to lodge construction. In most instances because of our own desires to see the most efficient buildings we possibly can down there. We have already hired energy consultants that are working with us right now in design. But to ask us to build those buildings or design those buildings in accordance with something we have not even had an opportunity to review with respect to their planning effort would be wrong. Amy: The issue is that it was a condition in the masterplan and a condition of conceptual that the applicant show us how they are going to exceed the energy standards that we have right now. We have not received anything from the applicant that says what they are going to do. I would be more than willing to change the condition that says "prior to City Council the applicant shall demonstrate how they are going to comply with the condition they agreed to at conceptual". The problem is we don I t feel it necessarily complied with the intent of those masterplan and the conceptual. Otherwise I don't know why you would have had that as a condition of conceptual prior to final. Fred: with the "exceed" language--I don't believe was left in. It was to be considered a priority in the design effort and which it continues to be a priority in the design effort. Amy: We don't know how you did that. Fred: If you would like to restate that and put it in as a condition, that is fine. But to tie us to the GMQS application on the residential side is making us apply the design of the lodge buildings to a residential code. The codes are very specific in that regard and they take into account all of those. Roger: On #19 shall we strike "lodge" out of that and put in either another condition number to demonstrate how they are meeting the conditions of energy efficiency. Perry agreed to this. Welton: #20. Housing impact fees. 38 PZM4.16.91 Amy: The applicant is concerned that if they came in to do the tennis townhomes that they would have to pay the fees for the and we have allowed them to pay only when they come in for that. Welton: #21. Roger: Can we get a title or an office as opposed to a person. Heaven forbid the person dies--the director of ACES would be OK. Welton: Revegetation guidelines. No problem. #23. Perry: #23 and 24 we have comments in that memo but that's-- Welton: #25. Perry: We have problems both with 25 and 26. We do not feel that we are obligated to give the irrigation water to the City. The Institute has traditionally irrigated that particular property and we feel and we will get together with the City Attorney on both 25 and 26 because we do not feel we should be required to give up our irrigation. Nor do we feel that we are required to install an 8" interconnect line to upgrade the system that has nothing to do with us. Perry: The City says that in return for the irrigation the City will provide the proposed development with potable and irrigation water. Well, we are already on city water. We are within the city limits. This is a condition that applies under the City land use with annexations where you are going on the City water system and in return for that you turn over your irrigation and well rights. In this case we are on city water and we are making upgrades within the property. #26, I don't know what that is. We are doing a loop system internal to the property and I think the Water Dept would like in their best case scenario to have a couple hundred thousand dollar water line running down there and across to Black Birch but I don't-- Bruce: Perry, you can give us your best shot. And we are giving you our best shot. Perry: Absolutely, Bruce and I am just responding to it. I have no problem with the request-- Welton: Does anybody have a problem with eliminating #26? 39 PZM4.16.91 Richard: Where did it come from? Amy: It came from the Water Dept. Welton: The Water Dept wants anything they can get their hands on. And always will. That's the nature of the beast. Fred: One of the most important landscape features of that entire area is those small ditches. And I don't know if any of us can imagine that whole property without water running through those ditches. And I don't begrudge the Water Dept for attempting to get their hands on some additional water rights but if they do, those water rights then become transferrable for other purposes and the area can be dried up. I think it is important that this commission make a statement in that regard. Roger: That's #25. Welton: We have not discussed at any of the previous meetings anything to do with the city taking the water rights to the property or the addition of an 8" interconnect to Black Birch Dr. I don't think it is appropriate right here if the Planning Office wants to argue it out with the city Council--fine. I propose that #25 be eliminated. We have not had a discussion on this and it is far beyond the scope for us to discuss. MOTION Jed Caswall, City Attorney: I will speak up on behalf of the Water Dept in that nobody else will. As regards to #25 there is an Ordinance on the books that says essentially if you are going to substantially extend the use of your water even though you are connected to the line it is not the dedication of water rights to meet that expanded use is provided. The Water Dept does in fact feel very strongly about this as pointed out. If in fact this project was coming into the City on an annexation or was connecting for the first time to the water system there is no question that the city would get the water rights. Again there is a provision that talks about expanded use of water even though you are on the city system that would allow for the dedication of water rights to meet that expanded use. The payment of increased tap fees would not based upon the information provided by the head of the water Dept the proposed extended use of water in this project will in no way be covered by the tap fees this project will pay. 40 PZM4.16.9l As far as whether or not the city would deny irrigation water to the Meadows I think the record is fairly clear as to how strong the city feels about this piece of property and the idea that the City would in any way deny water to that project I think is pretty far-fetched. As far as #26 goes at this point in time I do not disagree with the applicant as to #26. I have asked the Water Dept how is the necessity of the 8" interconnect line caused in any way, shape or fashion caused by the development of this project? And the answer I have gotten is that it is not. And as has been stated here somebody is taking their best shot to get everything they can, I don't think it is unreasonable however to continue both #25 and #26 on to Council and let them hammer it out. Particularly #25. #26 I think is borderline at best. MOTION Roger: I would suggest changing #25 to read in such a way that the issue of water rights and irrigation well rights associated with the Institute's property shall be discussed with the City Council. Black Birch is on the other side of the river. I am in favor of deleting #26. Roger: I will so move to those 2 issues. Mari seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: #27--Performance bond. Amy: We don't have a problem with the language as being proposed by the applicant changing the language to financial assurance in a form acceptable both to the owner and to the city as opposed to performance bonds. MOTION Welton: I will entertain a motion to change #27 to the applicant's language. Mari: I so move. Roger seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: #28. No problem. #29. No problem. We included it in our language approving the exemption from mitigation and exemption from the process. 41 PZM4.l6.9l Amy: The Planning commission did not delete this condition. We discussed it. Perry: No they did not delete this condition. They included the list of facilities that were considered to be essential public facilities. Amy: They are 2 separate issues. They also have to qualify insubstantial amendment. They have to do that anyway in the masterplan. We feel that they qualify. Perry: Amy, criteria in masterplan. you are asking to meet the SPA Insubstantial Amendment order to do an insubstantial amendment to the Amy: The problem was that the restaurant extension was never a part of the masterplan. It was never a part of conceptual review. Now whether in the masterplan we did say that additional development would be allowed if it qualified as an insubstantial amendment given the section of the code which discusses insubstantial amendments as to percentage of the total floor area. Perry: What an insubstantial amendment is a technical or engineering issue that was not foreseen during the approval. Now if what Amy is saying is meet the numbered criteria for an insubstantial amendment then that is different than what I was-- Amy: Why don't we add at the end of the sentence "As required in the Meadows Masterplan". Welton: That is good. That would put it back to the cushion that was provided at the time the Masterplan was adopted. MOTION Roger: I will move to include that language in #29. Jasmine seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: #30. No problem. #31. Perry: We have a serious problem with #31. Both the Institute, the MAA and the Physics have a real problem with this. We do not have a problem giving daytime public access to the race track if 42 PZM4.16.91 the city is willing to maintain it and indemnify us. None of us however are willing to give public access eternally to our particular projects. The Anderson Garden around our facilities, the MAA tent, the Physics circle of serenity--that is a very important area for us. We have our seminars outside and we need that. We cannot have people coming in there whenever they want. The Institute is involved in two lawsuits at this particular time. I think that this exaction is inappropriate given all of the trails that we have given and given all of the open space that we have. It is inappropriate and a negative kind of exaction to ask from us. We allow people to come in there but if we have a problem we can make them not come in and we can get rid of them. They don't have an inherent right to be there. This is a sacred area for the non- profits in terms of controlling what goes on in their property. Amy: Our concern and one the public needs to be aware of: There is a lot of talk about how people use the Meadows property. I think people need to be on notice that the Institute could change hands and we wouldn't be dealing with Woody and the people we are dealing with now. And they could close off total access to the race track, total access to Anderson Park and total access to all of this area. We do have public easements that allow people on these trails to move through down to the Conservation area and along the Conservation area but there is no public access at all internal to the site. And I think that there is a misconception on the part of the public that they have the ability to use this property. And it has been used traditionally and historically by people walking their dogs etc. And I think it is real important that everyone knows at any point they can shut off any public access internal. And that is why we put the condition in to really alert the Planning commission and the public that although it has been allowed and it is something that occurs that without any kind of assurances through this process it could be shut off at any time just like we have seen in other areas of the city. Gideon: We are offering access to the race track. What we are trying to preserve is the internal aspects of this particular campus. It is vital. We need to control our own destiny and we do not want to give the public the absolute right to be there when they can interfere with what goes on there. And it is very important to us. And I also don't believe from a legal point of view that given all of the land that we have given, all of the different trails that we have given that that is a reasonable exaction at this particular time. 43 PZM4.16.91 This really goes to the heart of these Institutions and we are not willing to do this. ACCESS Welton: I propose that #31 be changed to public access shall be encouraged internally with the non-profits throughout the academic and that a mechanism be developed at city Council level. Sara: Public access shall be controlled internally throughout the academic. That way people are allowed to do it. People can walk in the campus but if you are in the way you are asked to mumble. Perry: That is the way it has been for 40 years and-- Sara: How about "shall be controlled". Jasmine: I think controlled means that they can also be restricted the access as part of the control or forbidden entirely. And I don't see that that is appropriate. Richard: I would like to comment on the side of #31 as it is. That I think the public should have access to there and we need to trust members of the public not to bring their dogs to the Physics seminars. Gideon: But they do it. We have to keep them out all of the time now. Richard: Well, maybe add language that not accepting interference with specific Institute events that are occurring on the grounds. Perry: What you are saying is you are putting in the category of Herron Park where if someone wants to they can have their child's birthday party in Anderson Park and it creates a situation without going in advance and asking to do that. And it just is going to create an incredible tension because you get someone from the Insti tute running out and saying "You can't do this now". And "What do you mean? I have invited 30 people". Roger: What is the equivalent law with other academic areas? How does the University of Colorado deal with this? Amy: We are sympathetic with the non-profits about people interfering with their programs. What we need to do is come up with some language which allows them the ability to say "no". Bruce: Pedestrian access shall be allowed internal. be recognized that some reasonable limits of access may from time to time. It should be imposed 44 PZM4.16.9l Welton: That gives you the right from time to time to impose limitations on public access. Bruce: Reasonable limits. Gideon: Yes. But who makes the decision? Welton: That is your determination. Gideon: We don't have a problem with the way it is now. We just don't want to be in a situation where we have to go to the City and justify why someone throwing a Frisbee is interfering with a seminar or the physicists. Welton: That is one of the occasions when from time to time when it is appropriate for you to cut off the access. It is your property. It is up to you. If the Frisbee player objects then like any other person he takes a complaint to the Police or whoever. Fred: If it goes to the Police then isn't it considered private property. Wel ton: The Police would probably say it I s the Institute' s private property and they can restrict it if it's gotten out of hand. The Police are going to side with the property owner when somebody is using their property. Bruce: It tends to preserve the status quo the way it is now. Gideon: Then we have no problem with that. MOTION Bruce: I will make a motion that the public has access but you have the right to control it from time to time using reasonable limi ts . Roger: I second that motion. Everyone voted in favor of the motion. Welton: #32. No problem. SUBDIVISION 45 PZM4.16.91 Perry: I thought we had discussed that public access road where the west property boundary intersects with the road. That is just shy of that parking garage entrance. My concerns are that ROW with grades and intersection shall be approved for safety by the city Engineer. Once we get really internal to the property we have got that parking structure and bike paths and we want to be able to control that. I think we discussed this at the last meeting and it was decided that it would be at that point and then we will get easements that are necessary for snow equipment to turn around or whatever they have to do if they are plowing that road to that point. But we would like to have that as the deciding point that west property line which puts it at the end of the private property on the west side of the Meadows Rd which is Jed's concern when we were going through pUblic/private road. Amy: The staff was concerned that they were going to put a gate up where it turned into a private road and we thought that that gate should be at the point where the cars turn into the parking garage and that the rest of the property was designed to be pedestrian oriented and we didn't have a problem with cars not being allowed in there. Gideon: We will commit that there won't be a gate. ~. Amy: So public access will be all the way-- Gideon: Would be out to the restaurant turn-around. All I would like is that Meadows Rd should be a public local street to the end of Jim Adams property or the beginning of Lot #6 which is the tennis townhomes. If you want to say to the southern boundary of Lot #6. Welton: The Meadows Rd shall be a public local street to the southern boundary of Lot #6. Perry: Right. Chick Collins: I thought early in the meeting you said we would go through the entire resolution point by point. And if we were paying attention what was going on then we didn't have an opportunity to review all 50 or 60 conditions in here. And I have a number of questions about a number of these items I would like at least state for the record and then proceed. I question the designation of the new Meadows Rd as a local street. I feel it should be designated a collector street since it is practically a non-stop roadway from the Meadows all the way out to Hwy #82. And I would like to know where did the designation come 46 PZM4.16.91 from--local? What evidence? Did we have traffic counts? Numbers at North and 7th? Projected numbers coming out? So I have a real problem calling it a local street because what it does is changes the standards required with that particular street. Now the west end all the streets running east and west are local streets. Those running north and south are collective streets emptying into Hwy 82 which is an arterial. And I think whoever came up with this local should at least demonstrate in some evidence with some background experience that it will qualify as a local street. chuck Roth, Engineering Dept: It is based on traffic counts and in their traffic mitigation plan the anticipated traffic count exceeds criteria for local street. Perry: Our traffic engineer has reviewed that and submitted the plan. Welton: The reason why the work "local" is in parenthesis is because it is the nature of the street that it is not to be turned into a private street but that it stay a local street. I don't think the design standards are implied by putting parenthesis around here that it is a local street and that therefore it shouldn't meet the standard of a collector street. Amy: We can take the word "local" out and just say public street. Welton: That way it can be a collector or any other thing. MOTION Welton: I would entertain a motion to say that the new Meadows Road shall be a public street to the southern edge of Lot #6. Roger: I so move. Sara seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: #2 is OK. #3 is OK. #4 is OK. Chick Collins: On #2. I would like to add the legal access to the homes along Meadow Rd and North st. Welton: Does anybody have any objections to that? Perry: Yes. Amy: We don't feel it is necessary to provide legal access to the homes along North st. It is not part of this application. 47 PZM4.l6.91 Welton: The only house on North st that has any frontage is Charlie Marqusee's guest house and that already fronts on 8th st. Chick: And there are 2 more houses in the middle of block #6 out there across on the south side of North st which is the City ROW that access their homes through the alley. Now on the application submitted for this development, they showed a spur turning off the new Meadows Rd going in and it caused a resident access road. I am saying North st should be added to give those people legal access. It is simple. Perry: We got a letter from Chuck Brandt representing 2 families, the Titas and the Poland family who live on the south side of that North st ROW. And they are currently accessed by an alley. And they requested an easement. They requested a curb cut. I said since there is no curb and gutter--no need for a curb cut. If the city wants to allow you to come across their ROWand tie into this road which is a public road then great. But if not, it is not in this application and it is not a request that we are making. It is not on our property and it is not pertinent to this. It is definitely something that the applicant and the City should discuss on a separate level. Chick: I was just thinking if an applicant has to provide legal access to the homes on Meadow Rd then those on North st are affected. Welton: The difference is that these houses on North st have traditionally had legal access through the alley. The applicant is not proposing any change that would restrain their current access. The only change is that this would give them a second access. On the Meadows Rd the old Meadows Rd is being turned into a trail to no longer exist. This is a guarantee that the new Meadows Rd will continue to provide an access to replace the access that they no longer have. Chick: Then I wouid only ask why the applicant shows it on the final development plan. Perry: Chuck Brandt called Design Workshop and they put it on the plat and when we reviewed it we said this isn't in our bailiwick. Welton: Are there any more problems that you guys have? I hope none. Perry: I don't think there is anything else that really needs to go on. 48 PZM4.16.9l Collins: I have a question on #6. It states that a subdivision plat complying with the standards in section 7-1004(d.l) shall be submitted at least 2 weeks prior to City Council review. If you look in the regulations in Chapter 24 that condition should be in effect when it comes to this Commission for review. Then when it comes to the Council you also include (d.2). If you look in Resolution 2 of Council when they approve this at conceptual they made that exact language. Welton: Chick, this is such detailed minutia of what numbers in 7-1004(d.l) that is exactly the kind of detail that I requested at the very first meeting when you came up with your list of detailed problems with this application. Detailed stuff like that cannot be handled in a public forum using everybody's time to hash out when (d.l) and (d.2) are appropriate. Collins: If you put in a condition the condition should at least agree with what the regulations say in Chapter 24. These conditions when they were set up in conceptual approval were never met when this came in with planning. This says 2 weeks prior to city Council review. If my calendar is correct City Council review starts--the question is has this condition been met and can I get a copy of it. Welton: City Council is going to have 4 reviews that are spaced out over a month and a half's time. Perry: Just for the record the rehearsal facility didn't rest until about an hour ago. It is a little difficult to do a plat last night. And for Mr. Collins to sit here and say all of these things have to be done and yet he is out there saying move it here or get rid of it. It is a moving process to develop this plat and that is why the code gives you 180 days after final approval of the plan to get it all finalized and signed off and recorded. Welton: Do any Commission members have any changes on conditions of subdivision? Roger: #7--is roads included in utilities? Perry: There is a separate condition about the Engineer reviewing the roads. Roger: #lo--is it necessary at this point to include the trees to be replaced equal caliper to replace total caliper being removed. Welton: That was a representation made last week. 49 PZM4.16.91 Perry: There is an earlier condition that talks on a landscaping plan with a lot of detail that is to be reviewed. Roger: OK for #10 I would like to include that the applicant represent generally a statement that trees will be replaced on the basis of caliper equalling total caliper of replacement trees. Then on #16 I would just like to include not only for Meadows Rd but after Meadows Rd say "and 7th st and 8th st intersections. Collins: #17. The speed limit shall be reduced to safety standards as required by the City Engineer. And I am not sure that the reduced standards in this particular case we are talking about public safety that this is something that should be determined by the City Engineer. The road should come to city standards. Welton: The road is going to be built to standards that are acceptable to the Engineering Dept and the Engineering Dept are the experts that we depend on for determining road design and speed limit. Do you want a committee to determine the speed limit? Collins: I don't think that the city streets should be subject to the purview of the City Engineer who keeps changing. We have standards that are all spelled out in the code--curves, slopes-- Welton: The standards are set up in the code. This is going to be to reduce the speed standards and make them slower. Collins: You can't reduce safety considerations. Welton: We are not reducing safety considerations. reducing speed. We are Collins: Who is going to determine what the speed is? What I am getting at--there is no background. We are putting in a double reverse turn. Caswall: Mr. Chairman, under state law all streets are presumed to have a certain speed limit unless otherwise changed by the city Engineer in the jurisdiction which has control over those streets. There is a presumed speed limit for that street once it is installed. And that is the legal speed limit by state law. If the City wishes to lower that speed limit the authority for doing that rests with the city Engineer after traffic studies based upon design considerations, curves etc. Welton: We have gone through all the subdivision conditions. We have text amendments and does anyone have comments on text amendments basically outlining the open space zone district and the wild life preservation zone district. 50 PZM4.l6.91 Roger: #3 under wild life preservation--are we shooting ourselves in the foot where it says basically surface or underground water retention facilities except above ground concrete or metal container. Perry: Are you saying an above-- Roger: We are accepting concrete or metal containers? Perry: So are you saying a concrete bridge over the-- Welton: containment means containment. Bridge means bridge. Amy: You have a good point. ?: Concrete or metal structures are being prohibited. Roger: That's right. My worry is that that might be construed to include like a trail bridge over a ditch. Amy: The other thing we may want to allow for--we are planning on putting in a bridge and we want to make sure that the language doesn't include bridges. MOTION Roger: I would move to include language which prohibits concrete or metal in the use of bridges. Chuck: I would prefer that you didn't tie the design hands in the possibility that an acceptable mixture of techniques might come up. Perry: The cat is out of the bag! As you know the Engineering Dept has requested a stone water detention facility at the northern end of the race track with an access coming in and then a ditch going out. We feel that the City is not sticking to it's own standards here. The requirement is that every utility be placed underground for the private development. And we concur with that. We have asked that if the City wants to do something in the sage meadow that it is a detention structure that that also be undergrounded. If it is a natural depression out there and it is filling with runoff--it is a mud puddle and will destroy the sage and it is going to have debris in it at times after storms and it is going to destroy what the city is trying to preserve within that race track. It is a metal containment or concrete structure it is going to further destroy what is going on there and we feel that since 51 PZM4.16.91 we are being required to be underground, the City should meet their own standards that they put on a private applicant and agree to have only underground easements for storm water detention out there despite the cost. Roger: Is that a wild life preservation? Perry: Yes it is. Welton: No changes to that. Any other changes? Roger: What about bridges? Welton: It doesn't prohibit bridges. Roth: I just can't agree with that. This is not a utility. A utility provides a service to a customer and is delivered to that customer through some kind of vehicle usually a cable, a conduit, a pipe. The requirement for the storm water facility out there is for flood protection for the west end residents. It is done as a conditional use already and your objections can be heard in the conditional use hearing and I don't see the necessity of leaving that in there. Roger: Well, they want to delete it but I disagree with the premise. MOTION Roger: I will move to delete the exception in the preservation district paragraph #3. wild life Bruce seconded the motion. Fred: I would just like to correct what Chuck is suggesting that he finds something different in what a facility is and a detention structure. I would remind those of you who were sitting on the Commission at the time Little Nell project was approved and it was required of the applicant at that time to hollow out the bottom of Little Nell and put a detention structure in that is a detention basin only. And it provides protection for those residents in that portion of the town. And the City required the private sector to do that and I would suggest that the preservation of this particular area both from a viewplane as well as keeping with that precedent that we set all across this town that you retain the language that is already there. 52 PZM4.16.91 Caswall: This is a very important issue from the applicant's point of view and from the City's point of view. As some of you mayor may not know EPA standards regarding site runoff are going to be taking effect in Aspen over the course of the next five or ten years. This particular site has been identified on the master drainage plan for the city for over 20 years and the city of Aspen has repeatedly, over the years, just ignored the drainage problems that the City has. The drainage requirements and standards of EPA are going to apply to the city of Aspen and this area has again for 20 years been designated as the last place in the City to take care of this because all of the water that is running down the City is now running into Castle Creek and running into the Roaring Fork River. As you may know the Roaring Fork River was just upgraded as to the class of river that it is in terms of it's purity. EPA is going to be allover the City if you foreclose even the possibility of utilizing this property for some aesthetic reason for drainage. If you think we have got problems at the superfund site right now, you wait until 5 or 10 years when EPA comes down on us for the fact that we are polluting Castle Creek and the Roaring Fork River and the City has made a conscious decision to foreclose any possibility to use this piece of property to litigate that fact. It is an important public issue. Welton: Jed, it is an important public issue and the motion before us and has a second is to delete "above ground concrete metal containment structures" from that portion of the exception. It says "A conditional use for surface or underground storm water detention facility" which the applicant does not have a problem with. What the applicant does have a problem with is that the City should be able to come in and build something above ground out of concrete or metal when they won't let a private applicant do that. It has to be underground for a private applicant. Chuck: That is miSleading. Their own site drainage on this property is above grade. You have got a pond that is 1 acre for your own site drainage. The Little Nell situation was for their particular site only. Perry: I think you are misinterpreting this. What this says is "Surface or underground storm water detention facilities". What we would like is only underground as a conditional use. This condition says "Except there shall be no above ground concrete or metal containment structures". Welton: This is what I want. That is 180 degrees from what Roger's motion states. Roger's motion-- 53 PZM4.l6.91 Perry: Is to eliminate that exception. Roger: That is right. Richard: I would like to remind the commission that this is a new zone district being created and to apply it across the board to all areas of the City where it might be implemented and again it is a conditional use. Something that whatever is proposed needs to be hashed out with the property owners. I support Roger's motion. Welton: There is a motion on the floor and a second. Roger: The motion is to remove the language "except above ground concrete or metal containment" from sub paragraph 3 the lateral preservation zone district. And what that does is to prevent prohibiting that and putting it into the conditional use column. Everyone voted in favor of the motion except Welton. LIMIT TO GMOS EXEMPTION FOR PUBLIC FACILITIES Richard: The map amendments here--page 15 and 16 I have some questions about the way the map is presently drawn the different zone districts in that basically you have between the parts of the campus is all zoned academic except for one small area-- Gideon: It is the exiting Anderson Park, Richard. Richard: OK. It is designated as open space. And again it is my concern that as long as it is zoned academic can they come back in and apply for buildings throughout those areas that are zoned academic. Gideon: We are trying to preserve options for the future. In other words we are designating places that can never be built but the academic portions there has to be an opportunity over the next 10 to 20 years for the non-profits to come back in here to be able to present you a reason why the SPA should be changed and not to be precluded by the lack of zoning capabilities. We need to have some academic left for our future needs. Welton: Richard, to me it is kind of a mute point. If it is zoned open space or--they can come back in and ask for re-zoning as part of an SPA amendment. So it really makes very little difference whether the line is here or there. The process is not going to be any simpler no matter where the line is. Richard: I would prefer to have this all open space. 54 PZM4.16.9l Perry: It conforms to the masterplan which both verbally and on the maps outline the areas that they wanted to have open space. And then we drew up the proposed wildlife preservation and open space zone districts to make sure that that conservation land was preserved as wildlife preservation and the race track which, of course, now won't be. Welton: On page 16 the "Be it further resolved" the Planning Office insert the numbers in the proper slot. We have already discussed the conditional use for the 4 affordable housing units. We have also done the parking for the A academic zone district. MOTION Roger: I move to adopt Resolution #91-10 as amended to be signed by the Chairman when ready. Bruce seconded the motion. Collins: I object to the variations amendment which now brings in design standards of section 7-1004 of the streets. That is on page 15. And the last item on page 19, number 10 where they refer to the T section itself and I think this has been a difficulty in this whole process. Is it a T or not a T? Roger: It is not a T. And that is already deleted. Welton: It was deleted an hour and a half ago. There is a motion on the floor and a second. Everyone voted in favor of the motion except Richard Compton. Kim: I would like to enter this public notice into the record. (attached in record) Welton: The public hearing is officially out of the hands of the Planning & zoning commission. I am officially resigned! LILY REID SPECIAL REVIEW AND REOUEST FOR GMOS EXEMPTION Leslie: Made presentation as attached in record. Welton: Asked the applicant if they had questions regarding the conditions. ?: The basic design strategy of course is to move the Lily Reid bldg to the corner and to create a commercial bldg as background 55 PZM4.16.91 and surrounding it. The Lily Reid building will be completely restored to it's original state. That does a couple of things. #1 it permeates the Lily Reid bldg. Instead of being seen between 2 overscaled buildings as a single facade we now see it in all it's 3 dimensions with pedestrian space around it. Secondly the way we have used the corner we have created a very special corner in Aspen relating to the open space here and creating pedestrian space around the Lily Reid bldg and around the corner. It also, by putting the Lily Reed bldg here, helps create a transition from the scale of the downtown to the scale of the residential areas. In fact paring it up the Lily Reid with the victorian on the corner kind of sentinels the transition. As well the scale of the city has been brought down to the residential. As well the building has been designed to step back to allow sun and to also give a relief background for the lower scale Lily Reed bldg. We have reviewed this with HPC in terms of materials and colors. They were very excited about it and supportive of it and, in a nutshell, the things that we talked about we came through on in the final form of the architecture. ? Is that a parapet on top of whatever that is there? looking at a gable there? Am I ?: It is the elevator. It is where the elevator comes up instead- Roxanne: That was added at final. ?: It was on the original model as originally shown to you. Sara: How do you get to downstairs? To the basement. ?: The stair up to the second levels here and this right there directly off the plaza level. elevator at this location is straight down. the stair down is And of course the Roger: I am interested in the service to it. Is there a service access to a potential restaurant in the basement? ?: Service access directly to a service elevator right up here that goes directly to the basement. It does not go up. It goes down to--that is strictly service. There is another elevator-- passenger. Roger: Because we are reducing the service area how are you going to handle the trash? But before I get to that--service to the retail facilities in the Lily Reed house. It looks like it is from the alley through this space. 56 PZM4.16.9l ?: No. Lily Reed to what extent this is a 600ft-- Roger: Right. I assume it is going to be a T-shirt shop or something or whatever retail space or ice cream parlor or what have you. How are you planning service to the retail faciuity? ?: It will be directly off here. It can be brought from the location back here through the building. Roger: That is what we would prefer. Is there an entrance to that facility that they can access off that little mall in the back as opposed to coming around to the front door? ?: Is there a rear entrance to this building? There is a side access. It is off the sidewalk there. We went through this with HPC and they did not want to allow us any other openings than what is already there. Roger: If HPC says no other doors but those 2 doors, OK. But I want it put on the record that service to that should be off of the alley and not off the street. My worry is that service is going to be off the street where that door is to Monarch. So can you confirm that the service is going to be through-- ?: It can be operational requirement if that is part of the deal you make with them. Welton: Would you like to make that a condition #11 that service access to Lily Reed House be from the alley through the house? Gideon: OK. There are 2 conditions I would like to talk about. #6 we would like some ability to just put in there if it is required by the code we would like an opportunity to look into that to see whether in fact we are required to give up the well and so we would like the ability to check that out. Welton: Asked if there any objections to adding to the end of #6 "If required by code". Gideon: employee problems And then #1. But we housing at one time. with #1 through #11. are going to wait to discuss the Then we don't have any other MOTION Welton: There is 3 items to be taken tonight. The first is I would entertain a motion to move to approve the special review for the reduction in open space and utility trash service area with the 57 PZM4.16.91 conditions the same as the Planning Office memo dated April 16, 1991 with condition #6 having it required by code as the end of it and condition #11 be added that service to the Lily Reid house as being off the alley and not from the street. Roger: I will so move. Bruce seconded the motion. Sara: Asked about snowmelt and the expense. Welton: It is not that expensive. When it comes right down to it the actual cost can be less than comparable to hiring somebody driving from Rifle to do the shoveling. Everyone then voted in favor of the motion. Welton: The next approval is for GMQS exemption for expansion of an historic landmark pending the interpretation of City Council. MOTION Roger: I so move. Welton asked the applicant if they had any problem with those condition. Gideon: #3 which again we talk about 8 and I need to talk about on the housing because there are some other things that we are going to discuss later. Welton: I think I may have a way of handling that item once we get to the approval. Mari seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: It seems like you are trying to do some things that are outside of the approved guidelines of the Housing Authority. Now anybody who can figure out what the approved guidelines of the Housing Authority are has got to be a genius. Their qualifications, their guidelines, the size of the units, the type of housing is so chameleon-like that I--when I deal with my clients I say "The only thing you can do is sit down with them at least a half dozen times and you hash out on approved plan with the Housing Authority because you can't anticipate from reading anything what the rules are going to say as to what is approvable and what is not". Sara: Do they have to mitigate employees for what is going to get landmark designation? 58 PZM4.16.91 Welton: There is a formula for reduction in the mitigation if you are an historic landmark. You are not particularly let off scott free for historic landmarks. You have a percentage. I think that we approve employee affordable housing for 8 employees the configuration of which shall be negotiated between the applicant and the Housing Authority to the satisfaction of the Housing Authority. will something like that work? Amy: The configuration of the housing in terms of meeting the guidelines and square footage of certain spaces is the Housing Authority's. And the number of units based on that comes from the Housing Authority. Over and above that when there is a new proposal we have a problem with quality of life in terms of in the middle of a building and elevator shaft and no windows. That is a planning issue that we are bringing it up with the Housing Authority. Welton: I am saying let's house the people--let's do it in a form acceptable to the Housing Authority in a negotiated forum with the applicant. And I don't think there has ever been a criteria that we judge something based on the quality. Gideon: We put it on the second floor which I think is a very important step that we don't seem to be getting credit for. Welton: I have no problem with the housing experts being able to evaluate the housing. And if we can pass on to them recommendation that 8 people be housed that the guidelines be low and moderate and that these people be qualified for the housing that they occupy and not be overqualified for the housing they occupy. And that the quality of the living experience be improved and that the relative number of kitchens, common spaces, square feet per person be negotiated with the Housing Authority so as to maximize the living ability--the realistic habitability of those units. One of the goals of that motion is to be able to hire young people out of business school or whatever--people who like me 18 years ago--ski bums who don't mind sharing or doubling up for one season. He wants to provide one unit of dormitory housing so that it is really cheap housing for recent college graduates that are going to working in the retail space down below. Gideon: One of the suggestions that the Housing Office made to us was to possibly look at an option to the dorm. The Housing Authority hasn't dealt with this. This was staff. We were going to go to the Housing Authority. One of the requests that they have is that we possibly take the 300 extra feet--we have a 1.4 to 7 to 1 FAR. If they take the extra 300ft and we apply that to the 59 PZM4.l6.91 employee housing that gives us options of providing a different mix than dorms. And they would like us to look at that. We would be happy to go to the Housing Authority and discuss with them if you make the change to 1.5 to 1 which is that 300ft understanding that it all has to go tot he employee housing. Then we can sit with the Housing Authority and try to come up with a discussion as to the validity of dorms vs another mix that they seem to be talking about. So if you could change that and also change the #3 that the applicant shall provide housing mitigation for the required number of employees because it may be 8, it may be 7. It may be 8 and 1/2 depending on the configuration that we can go to the Housing Authority and work with them in terms of coming up with a solution for that. If you make those changes we can work with them. If we add 300sqft to the whole building that would all go to the employee housing. Then you get a different mix in terms of dorm and single families and others. We don I t have to change the structure in any way to the effect of the historic approval. Welton: When we went through the first approval didn't you ask for some flexibility in that FAR? There was no answer on this. Welton: In order to improve the quality of the employee housing experience would the person who made the motion to approve the special review for reduction of open space and trash utility service area change condition #1 to read "The floor area of the project shall not exceed 1.5 to 1 provided the extra square footage be used entirely for employee housing". Roger: I will move to reconsider the previous motion concerning the utility trash area. Bruce: I amend my second. Richard: What is allowable under the HPC approval for floor area. What is allowable on the site for FAR? Gideon: 1.5 to 1 by right. 2 to 1 by special review. Welton: And the 2 to 1 is if they provide employee housing. They are already doing that and not asking for-- Roger: I had moved to reconsider the previous motion procedurally so that we can change that. 60 PZM4.16.9l Welton: motion. All of those in favor of reconsidering the previews Everyone voted in favor of this. MOTION Roger: I move to modify the motion concerning the utility and trash area condition #1 to change from 1.5 to 1--the addition of 300sqft being devoted entirely to affordable housing. Gideon: And also in #3--the 8 may change to whatever is appropriate. Roger: That is a different motion. Bruce seconded the motion with all in favor. MOTION Roger: I will move to reconsider the motion concerning GMQS. Sara seconded the motion with all in favor. MOTION Roger: I move to amend the motion concerning GMQS exemption to change condition #3 to indicate "The applicant shall provide housing mitigation for the required number of employees". Bruce seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: The last part is that basically left the negotiation skills of the applicant and the Housing Authority and the Planning Dept to come up with improved liveability of the employee housing units and appropriate mix of tenant and price guideline occupancy. Appropriate and legal room dimensions, common space, living room square footages provided by the housing guidelines that is a housing plan acceptable to the Planning Office and the Housing Authority prior to City Council. Gideon: The bottom line is we still go to Council if we don't agree with the Housing Authority or with the Planning Office. Let's say the Housing Authority agrees with us but the Planning Office doesn't. We still have the ability to go to Council who makes the decision. Welton: That's right. It is the Council's decision. We are only recommending that you improve your plan. 61 ".. PZM4.16.91 Roger: I would like to include in that motion the indication that we don't find dormitory housing adverse or anything like that. Welton: There is a skeleton of a motion floating in the air if somebody would make the motion. MOTION Richard: I move to recommend approval of an affordable housing mitigation program which will be worked out between the applicant, Planning Office and Housing Authority in such a way that it complies with the Housing Authority guidelines for affordable housing and would be appropriate mix of tenant and price guidelines of occupancy and makes an attempt to improve the quality of the living experience. Not intended to prohibit dormitory housing. Roger seconded the motion with all in favor. Welton: Barring any objections the meeting is adjourned. Time was 8:55pm. 62