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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19920107 .~ , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS '.",...- PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JANUARY 7. 1992 Chairlady Jasmine Tygre called meeting to order at 4:30pm. Answering roll call were Tim Mooney, David Brown, Sara Garton, Richard Compton, Bruce Kerr, Roger Hunt and Jasmine Tygre. COMMISSIONER COMMENTS David: Having had time to reconsider the issues before the Commission at last session I have reason to reconsider my vote on the Marshall hot tub at Hallam Lake. After discussion: MOTION David: Being one of the people who voted with the majority I would like to move to reconsider the Marshall Hallam Lake issue and bring it back before the Commission. Bruce seconded the motion. ~ Roll call vote: --- Tim, yes, David, yes, Sara, no, Richard, no, Bruce, yes, Roger, yes, Jasmine, no. MOTION Roger: I move to place the Marshall issue on the next agenda of January 21, 1992. Bruce seconded the motion with all in favor. STAFF COMMENTS Work session was set for February 4 for discussion on the Kraut property. Kim brought Commission up to date regarding the golf course lights for Nordic skiing. Kim presented Emde Resolution for signing. PUBLIC COMMENT There was no public comment. ASPEN WINTER GARDEN PUD AMENDMENT ~ Jasmine opened the public hearing. ......... David explained a potential conflict of interest at this point. ~., PZMl.7.92 .-- , .-. "...- L Jasmine: Do you feel there is a conflict? David: No. Not on this issue. After discussion the Commission members decided there was no problem with David taking part in this hearing. Diane made presentation as attached in record. staff recommends approval of the amendments to the PUD Subdivision agreement, the Final PUD plan, Subdivision, GMQS Exemption, conditional Use Approval and Special Review for Parking. I have listed 20 conditions. I would like to add one more. One is for a trash exit area and the other one was that a drop off area bedepicted in the final development plan. Also I received 3 phone calls. One was concerned about the noise and she was going to try to attend this meeting. Two others were just interested in the development plan. I did not receive any written correspondence. Richard: Was the noise from somebody at the North of Nell? Diane: No. It was from right around the Tipple Inn. Perry Harvey, representative for applicant: Gave background on application. Craig Hanson, Design Workshop: Using drawings described the site as to landscaping, lighting, summer & winter use, drop off zone, sidewalk and parking. Mark Hindorn, Architect from Hagman Yaw: There are 2 buildings on si te. Both small buildings. A skate rental/concessions and service/maintenance building. We have an 8ft slope between Dean st and the skating rink so the building can sit very easily into the side. The roof of the building becomes a platform with 3 steps coming up and a very nice observation deck for people to look at what is going on on the skating rink. Our food service has been reduced. It is now 4 vending machines. The architecture of the buildings--we wanted to make it a pavilion type structure and give this the character of a small park pavilion-a little bit victorian. We tried to relate it to the Rubey Park building and a little bit to the Ritz Carlton. The 2 PZMl. 7.92 materials are red brick with dark brick bands. The roof is dark slate gray colored shingles. As to the noise of the mechanical equipment, I guarantee it won't make any more noise than the Tippler. It is 100ft from the nearest building and these are only going to be operated in the daytime in the winter. They are not going to be going in the night and not in the summer. There is some concern in the memo about snowshed from the roofs. The building is actually surrounded by grass on 3 sides and then there is a small planting area across the front of the building. The only place there is public access is right at the center of the building and that has a gable dormer here so that all the snow is shedding off of that. Richard: What is the summer surface going to be? Harvey: We have a pipe rail that goes around and a dasher board. Those are all removed in the summer time. So that this is simply one large plaza. It is poured concrete, smooth slab. ,...."'- David: From a decorative standpoint I recommend that you consider taking the plaster strips all the way around the skate building, not just on the west side. That would go a long way to breaking up the scale and carrying across to the maintenance building. And that the garage doors on the maintenance building that you do a decorative trellis. And also that you consider slate roof instead of asphalt shingles. ,,- Mark: It is not an asphalt shingle. We are looking at a very slate-like look. The other is a stained wood shingle with a slate color. We are not looking at asphalt shingles. It is a thick mineral fiber that looks like a piece of slate. Tim: Is there any snowmelt involved in the sidewalks? Harvey: There is I think coming down these stairs and around to here. There is a certain amount of rubber matting that goes down for people on skates. Snowmel t doesn't work very well going through that matting. But we have a snowmelt for the main traffic patterns. Not on the walks that lead in. The steps can be snowmelted. The steps mayor may not be. /'--- Roger: You have a lot of heat coming off those compressors and it would certainly behoove you to put a pre-cooler in to heat your snowmelt water to use the waste heat off your condensation units- -thereby reducing your--you could almost eliminate any energy necessary for snowmelting only just from the waste heat from your refrigeration system. \- 3 /'" PZMl. 7.92 Tim: Are there any chemicals in the actual freezing process of the water and the ice? Harvey: Yes there is and there is a mention in the memo of not using freon. There is a mention made of using a certain kind of freon. And we have talked with Lee and the design review committees. There are 2 things you can use. You can use ammonia which is less depleting of the ozone but if you got a leak it is much more depleting to the human population in town. Roger: It is biodegradable though. Harvey: I think we are going with freon. I haven't talked to our rink design people. The instruction we gave to them to make sure we are using the state-of-the-art. Tim: Is it always open to the public? to the public vs someone who is staying has a condominium? What are the restrictions at the Ritz or someone who ...../ ", Harvey: We don 1 t envision any special treatment for anyone in terms of any specific individual. We want it open to the public. What we may do is reserve some time during the 10 to 10 operation. And I don't know when that is going to be. Maybe it is going to be 3 to 5. I think you are going to get public demand probably after skiing and in the evenings. So when exactly we do that, I don't know. But it is primarily designed to be open to the public all the time. '- Tim: So if someone brings their own skates down, there is no fee. Harvey: If someone brings their skates, they will probably pay a fee to get on the ice. What we are looking at is about $7 if you want to rent skates and skate. We are going to try and be unstructured in terms of how we operate it until we figure out what works for everyone. We want to do ice shows. We want to do events of all kinds down there. But for the most part we want to keep it open to the public. Roger: Has it shrunken down to the point now where--is there any point in having an ice skating rink there? The reason I say that- -related to sizes of things. That is smaller than an R-6 lot. If you relate it to the Rubey Park Transportation Center across the street it is barely larger than that. So visualize how many people you can get in that area. I would say that if you can get 50 people on that piece of ice, you are lucky. How many feet does an ice skater need? .- 4 PZMl. 7.92 Harvey: The indications we have gotten from the design company is about 75 people is going to max this. It is 60ft width which is what you have to maintain to get people moving around and still accommodate some individual stuff in the middle of the rink. It was shrunken upon request. We have kept the same refrigeration system and unit size. The rink we had before required a shade structure. We have been able to eliminate that because our refrigeration system now can hold ice for this amount. Tim: If you have an injury here, do you have access for an ambulance? Harvey: We haven't laid out a route for that. There are 2 ramp entrances to the rink. Sara: Where are people going to sit for these ice shows in the winter time? -- Harvey: I would imagine that they will cluster around here and over here on these overlooks. I don't know what we are going to do for ice shows. One of the things in the winter that you are going to find--the Zamboni when it goes around and picks up ice shavings and there is a pit that it dumps into. But in terms of if you get 6 inches of snow on there and we have to go out and clear it off, we are going to have snow storage around and that is part of what we had to consider. ,'''''-' Sara: I have a problem with digging out anything at the bottom of a mountain. Everyone tells me you can but you replace it with a seawall like at the North of Nell or Southpoint. Those are the biggest barriers to the mountain sliding. But this you have dug something and what if the drains don't work and there is this big puddle down here? Harvey: I don't think that is going to be a problem. There is a drainage system. There is a lot of top soil down there and it really isn't--it is not a depressed--it is simply leveled out and the natural grade rises up between Durant and Dean st. Mark: There is a well designed drainage system. Guaranteed. And it is all on-site drainage that we have to deal with. Sara: But the snow is just melting all the time. Harvey: This side is taken care of by snowmelt. There are drain pickups in here and here. So I think that is going to accommodate. Sara: Those drains don't freeze? '~,-' 5 r'.'-'-' PZMl.7.92 Harvey: Well, in the spring time when it is--if it is frozen, it is frozen. In the spring time if it is melting or in the daytime if those are exposed they are going to be able to take that moisture. Mark: It is the same as drains allover town. Tim: Have you targeted the design of this layout for any specific uses in the Summer? Harvey: Well, we targeted it so that we have the seating potential here--the sloping down. And this overlook up here and the plaza and the fact that the railing is removable so we can create space if there was to be a town dance on the 4th of July or whatever. For specific uses--no. Tim: What about alcohol. Is there going to be any alcohol served? Harvey: We do not have any bar that would be requesting a liquor license down there. If in connection with special permits--if the Food and Wine Classic wants to use this, yes, there is going to be a request to serve wine. ".....".- -- Cottonwoods--I don't know if you have been over there to see those Cottonwoods but I would encourage you to go by and look at them. They are big. When we looked at this we want these to be taken down for several reasons. #1, Cottonwoods don't have an extremely long life. One of them has already been topped so it has kind of grown out of that. We are designing this for the long term. This is the primary entrance to this facility. You can see we have brought this sidewalk around like this. We have got the 8ft sidewalk and we have really opened this corner up. This is going to be the major flow from town, from Rubey Park, from the Gondola. Cottonwoods have a very shallow root system. If we go in to put in the concrete that we need to put in and the road base that goes under it we are probably going to be going down 8 to 10 inches which is going to destroy a lot of the root system. There are 2 solutions. We can shrink the sidewalk and shrink this sidewalk and take our ramp which is currently 5% and bring it out here which is not on a corner which would increase the grade going down into here and I feel it would really artificially create this where you would have to come--and I don't think we could do-- unless you wanted to do which is we are not really willing to do- -a tree-well around there that would be big enough to accommodate that tree and that grate would go from this curve all the way out here. There is no way to get from the corner crossing which is the 6 PZMl. 7.92 way the city system is set up over to here to get down into the site. The other way to do it is to bring it around over here to preserve these trees. That doesn't work either. This is a critical corner. These trees are very nice but they just don 1 t work. We have created a plan here which has got about 60 trees on the park site and I would urge P&Z when they look at that recommendation from the Parks Dept that you guys are in charge of long range planning. That is what we are trying to do here. If these were back over here, we wouldn't have a problem with it. Given where they are and the concrete work we need to do with curb, gutter and entry, they just don't work. Tim: Would you be willing to bargain for those. Say give us a couple of big Spruce trees. This is all kind of summer scape. And it would be nice to have some prominent big Evergreens in there. Harvey: This entire end of the site has 12 Spruce trees--13 with this one which is centered here which is one of the ones which is coming from here. David: Did you all consider sprinkling a few more Spruce trees all the way around especially behind the skate building? ~.".~-- Harvey: We had a design which had an Aspen Grove back in here and then we tried to concentrate--this little area here? Is not a prime useability to the site. So what we tried to do is focus the Spruce trees where the eye would really read because between the North Of Nell building and the back of the skate building there isn't much. But this is a pretty formal plan. It is a formal park plan. David: I was thinking of every 3rd or 4th tree in some sort of formal pattern. Bruce: 3 quick comments: I don 1 t have a problem with the Cottonwoods going away especially if we get something else green the year around. I don't like the size of the rink. I think in our previous discussions of this when we talked about downsizing everything-- I don't know that we really talked about downsizing the rink as much as we talked about the restaurant and the other buildings and all of that. Harvey: You didn't. council did. Bruce: Well, whatever. They can do whatever they want to do. So I am not happy with the size of the rink. I don't know if any additions can be made to that. But 60ft is only 20 yards. 7 PZMl. 7.92 Roger: I agree with you. Bruce: And I am not happy with the name Aspen winter Garden. Harvey: Neither are we. If you want to make a recommendation to city council for specific names or do some kind of community thing to pick a suggestion for this-- Tim: Asked about tap fees. Harvey: If you remember what was on this site--we are getting no credit. So what essentially the Water Dept the way they treat us is "You guys are coming in as if this site has always been vacant and there has never been any water usage on there". My contention, which can be proved, is that the amount of water consumption that is going to go on after this rink is built is probably less than 50% of the water consumption that went on over time. This is a community facility. It is going to decrease the water usage over what historically has been on the site so based on that I am asking for a waiver of having to pay tap fees for the public bathrooms. -.- Jasmine: I do agree with Bruce as far as the size of the rink. I think that the winter use of this property is more important than the summer use of the property because we do have Wagner Park right nearby. And so the use of this in the summer time is not as essential. The idea of the skating rink I think is really a good one. I agree with Bruce that if there is any way that it could be expanded even a couple of feet to make it that much more useable I think it would be that much more of an amenity. I don't have a problem with the Cottonwoods being moved. I would like to see more Evergreens around because I think this is more important as a winter facility and the idea of some kind of Evergreen decoration there, with or without twinkling lights, I think would be very attractive. Richard: This didn't show us any lighting on the North/South walks on either end. Where will they be receiving light from? And on Galena Street you show parallel parking. Is it all parallel? Harvey: They alternated. winter it will be parallel for snow removal and in summer it is angle. Richard: Concerning the rink size this is basically a half a hockey rink with a little bit off the corners. - 8 - PZMl. 7.92 Mark: The plan we had before was sized for a small hockey rink. And it was deemed that we probably wouldn't be having hockey on the rink anyway. The Ice Garden and the city was emphatic that we not play hockey here. That is where all their revenue comes from. Richard: When I first saw the plan and the downsizing of the rink, I was wondering if it would be large enough. After thinking of the size it is not a great big open space for skating but I do think it is sufficient to move around on. CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL Jasmine: How many cost? The first condition applies to the Cottonwood trees. people want to see the Cottonwood trees preserved at all silence How many would like to see the Cottonwoods compensated with other kind of additional trees elsewhere on this site? silence again. .'- Jasmine: So we shall say the 2 large Cottonwoods on the corner of Durant and Galena Street may be removed as shown on the plan and replaced-- Roger: Elsewhere with Evergreens. Bruce: Specify a caliper Harvey: What we have done is agree to--we can't guarantee them except that if it doesn't work we are going to replace with--what we have got here is--this is relocated Spruces, these are existing, to remain and then all of these are between 12 and 16ft Spruce trees which we feel--and that is the tradeoff. I don't know why she says in there 9 to 16ft height. We have 7 new ones on here and he wants 9 then--you guys want some more so-- Sara: How about going with the 9 then? Harvey: That's fine, yes. Jasmine: wait a second. We are replacing the Cottonwoods now. Sara: I know it. with going with 9-- - 9 PZMl.7.92 Harvey: with 2 more Spruce than what are shown on our plan. What you are saying is don't put them over there. We will put them somewhere else. Sara: I would like to go with Design workshop. I think they have a good park plan going here. Jasmine: As far as the conditions though, the 2 large Cottonwood trees on the corner of Durant and Galena may be removed as shown on the plan and be replaced by caliper Evergreen elsewhere on the site. Sara: Or we can just go with condition #2 which already suggests 9 . Harvey: 2 12 to 16ft spruce trees? Jasmine: Yes. Because we have to cover the fact that these are the replacement trees. Richard: It seems to me an appropriate place for additional Spruce trees might be screening the back east side of the pavilion there- -break up that facade and screen it from Galena street. I think Design Workshop made a good point when they said that to have them along the walks and kind of shade the walks a lot-- Harvey: I think what we did was the way we put these trees in was staggered to make sure that we had a full visual screen through there. Roger: I have a concern for people in effect inadvertently making Evergreen hedges out of the planting of Evergreen trees too close together. What looks neat when they are 7ft tall, all of a sudden becomes just horrid when they are 20ft tall. It is nice to say you are putting in all of these darn Evergreens but I see that west end as becoming just a horrid hedge some day. Harvey: You want us to look at this so that we don't get too crowded. Roger: Exactly. And right now it looks to me too crowded the way you have planted the 7 footers or whatever the new ones are. It is still nice to be able to see a little bit through them once in a while. You just don't want a solid green wall. Diane: You would like them to look at the configuration of the landscape of the western portion of the property as to the replaced spruce trees. Roger: Yes. So it doesn't become a hedge. 10 ./ PZMl. 7 . 92 . .-. Richard: I concur with that. I think you have put an awful lot of trees on a site that has very few right now. And that to me the numbers aren't so important as the effect. Jasmine: So then Condition #2 will stay the same? Harvey: I think what we are showing is replacement with 7 and then what we were talking about here is adding 2 more to replace the Cottonwoods to bring us to 9. Jasmine: So we should change 2 to 7 because we have condition #1 as taken care of #2. Harvey: Condition #4--any trees of 6in caliper graded and removed from the site must receive a tree removal permit from the Parks Dept. It seems to me that this is what we are doing right now. We are establishing final development plan for this site and Parks has been a referral agency on this and if this plan as it gets approved it by necessity says "Yes you can take this out but you have got to put this in and this is your landscape plan and gets recorded as part of the plat". And I don't understand why while this is true under City ordinance, I don't understand why-- basically we could go through this whole process and I could go to George and say "George we have got to take these Cottonwoods out. I was told to". He says "I am not giving you a permit to do that". -- Jasmine: Well, maybe we should just say "In accordance-- Harvey: It seems to me this is all being established through the final-- Diane: These are conditions of approval for this entire project and once these are ratified by Council and adopted by ordinance, if George would say to you "You can't remove those" I mean this is a condition of approval-- Harvey: I understand. My concern is if this condition stays in and I get a final approval from Council that one of the conditions of approval states that I have got to go get a tree removal permit then I have just got one more step in the process. Bruce: So take condition #4 out. It is already a city ordinance that he has got to get a permit. Diane: You have to get a tree removal permit whether it is in here or not. Jasmine: OK. Take it out. 11 PZMl. 7.92 And then we have amended #11 to "The dropoff area must be depicted on the final development plan. Diane: Yes. Jasmine: Are there any other modifications that we need to make to any of the other conditions that are currently existing? Sara: #6. Is there a problem there? Has he addressed that? Jasmine: Yes. He should consider it. Harvey: That is fine. We have considered it. Joe Wells: Under #17 are there provisions under the code for extension request which this would prohibit? Diane: No. This is basically reiterating the section in the code that the applicant has any right to apply for an extension. Joe: But this would suggest that he doesn't have the right to apply for an extension. '"", Diane: If you want to insert something in there-- -- Joe: I just would like it to be the same as the code language that there is a provision for an extension request. Richard: This doesn't override the code, does it? Diane: No. Harvey: No. There is a provision for an extension in the code. Jasmine: Well then I don't think that we should--I don't see where the problem is. Diane: Joe, if the Commission is in agreement with Joe, I can put in a sentence referring to the extension provision. Jasmine: Yes, I think we might as well. Richard: Just say "Unless extended by Council"-- Joe: Diane's got it. Harvey: In #16-- Diane: If you feel comfortable with me adding something in there, I will do that. -' 12 PZMl. 7.92 Tim: #17 is OK with me. I have a question abut #16 too, Perry. Go ahead. Harvey: Basically as Diane said earlier--private property you don't need a special use permit. This is quasi public/private property because it is private property but it is a public purpose. What I didn't want to do was to have the manager of the site have to go to City Council for a special use permit which is the way it works now. And what I was hoping is that what we could come up with was a system whereby a monthly calendar of requested events from a lodge that wants to do a party for skiing for a couple of hours or the Food and Wine Classic or whatever. As that is set up for the month of May, for the month of June, go to City Manager for the month of June and that can get attached to Council as an information item and if there is a problem with it far enough in advance so that we can find out there is not going to be a problem. We are projecting hours of 10 to 10. If the ute Center wants to do a dance till midnight, that is going to be--I would consider that kind of a special use because it is outside the parameters of approval. Two things--I don't want it to go to Council because they have enough to do. -- Diane: I think depending on the particular event the city Manager is going to determine whether council should formally review it or not. I think most of them probably won't require Council review. Harvey: OK. Is there a way to incorporate some kind of standards of we know what we are talking about because city Managers will come and go. Tim: I think this is really important because I potentially see the use of this in the summer time as very active. And I hope that we give the same consideration to all the public amenities as we do to the Ritz so that if someone comes in and wants it and let's say they can rent it for a certain fee, those fees should be standard for all public events and not be determined at will because of a special event. Diane: I am confused what you mean be fees. We are talking more about approval of special events. Tim: It is private property and privately managed so there are going to be fees involved that are going to be paid to Savanah. So I think that those fees and requirements to use this should be the same for all public amenities and public associations and public clubs as they are for things that are within the Ritz so 13 . ""'.-.'..... PZMl. 7.92 """,v that the Ritz doesn't have one fee for themselves and another fee for the public. Harvey: The Ritz property the same control of this. is going to be an applicant for the use of this way anyone else is. They are not going to be in What do you want to see? Tim: I want to see it be as accessible to all public associations to use it as a park for their own private ventures as it is to the Ritz for it's cocktail parties or wedding receptions or whatever. And the same fee structure that applies to the Ritz is used and the same kind of review for special use permit to the Ritz is to the public. And that we are--they are going to own it and operate it but we are going to underwrite it and therefore we should have open access to it at the same rate and fee structure. Diane: The City is not--you are talking about 2 things. The City is not going to get involved in fees. We are talking about review of events and things that relate as to do we need police on the site, street closures, what sort of parking requirement, all the other issues when someone comes in for a special event permit that need to be addressed for that event. Tim: What we are creating is a venue here for the Ritz to merchandize. Harvey: I don't see that. In all probably I think you will find that the fee structure that we charge operating this as whatever type of business it can be operated as. It is not going to be a money maker. In all probability the Ritz1s fee structure will be higher. The charge to them or to the Little Nell or to--it is going to be higher than it is going to be to the Youth Center or the Fire Dept when they want to do a block party. Tim: I think it is going to be a very popular thing. Harvey: I do too. people away. And I hope it's biggest problem is turning Jasmine: I think what Tim is getting at is some kind of an operations parameter that makes sure that it is not always taken up with so many special events that a member of the general public who doesn 1 t happen to be a fireman or a guest at the Ritz or anything else who is just an individual who just wants to go there and skate sometimes can actually go there and not always be precluded by special event no matter who it is. Harvey: There are going to be more of these special events in the summer. In the winter there is going to be fewer groups that say can I reserve the rink for private skating. 14 ,,--,............ -- - PZMl. 7 . 92 Jasmine: What we are saying is that--I think what we need is some kind of a contract of some sort. Bruce: That is the point I was going to make. I am not sure what #16 really means. Because we are back in the same issue that we talked about before that we have got private land going into public domain and it is going to be zoned Park but it is still privately owned. We talked about this before back in the previous meeting on this. We said then we wanted to do whatever it takes to make sure that this remains open to the public. And what we are trying to do now is to define, I think, somehow with #16 some kind of operating agreement between the City and the private land owner. And I don't know that we can do that. Jasmine: Maybe we just refer to the restrictive covenant in #16. Harvey: What #16 was designed for was a process to achieve a special event permit. Bruce: But why is it a part of the Land Use Approval is what I don't understand. Diane: Well, because for example in other PUD approvals such as the Hotel Jerome they agreed with the City as to what type of special permit they would need on their land as it had an impact to the city in terms of street closures, barricades, street cleaning, and all these other issues. So within--it has been appropriate within a PUD process that if you and I felt it was important in this if we want to have some sort of process identified. And all this was--all #16 was designated for was to address those events and it was geared, in my mind, as a lot more taking place in the summer geared towards those events that where Savannah would come in and say "Hey we are going to have a Food and Wine Classic. Can we utilize a portion of this site and there is going to be such impact on the City. We are going to need police and street barricades put up here, here and here and all this". And there is some sort of mechanism to have this opportunity for the city to review that. That is what all this was for. It was not to get into actual operations on the site which I think is more what you were alluding to. So that was the intent of putting that in there and I think it is appropriate because of this uniqueness of the site and the type of use on here because we have this quasi pUblic/private use on it. Bruce: Maybe I am reading more into it than--the same thing would apply to any property owner in this community. If they want to 15 PZMl. 7.92 have some kind of special event the impact, the police or whatever, they have got to come in for a special events permit, don't they? Diane: I can't think of many private properties where you have a public ice skating rink and a landscape park area that would deed restricted for that use. This is really unique. This is very different and I can't think of any sites that are privately owned with public zone district on it either. That is why I was trying in my mind to come up with something that would give the city some review and give the applicant--and I think the neighbors need to know that there is some sort of control and review over the use of the site. Bruce: Maybe this needs to be run by Jed and the legal staff. Maybe there is a way that somehow this can be done so that the land is still owned by Savannah and they lease it to the City for a buck a year and then the city contracts for a buck a year with Savannah to manage it or something so that then you can enter into some formal contractual agreements as to operations. That may not be the way to do it but surely some legal minds can come up with a way to do this so that it is not so complicated and confusing. '- Harvey: I think that I envision in the summer time you are going to have lots of skate boarders and kids going down those ramps and across that surface. We are going to restrict some of that simply because it is just--if the kids take something over then it is gone. Then somebody trying to walk across there or going down to sit on the lawn they are not going to do it because there is going to be 10 or 15 kids down there. We have had requests to put basketball hoops down there--then it becomes single purpose. We looked at doing in-line skating clinics down there and allow some of the local shops to come in certain hours and do clinics in there. And that is one of the uses that goes on during the daytime. But I just don't know and I don't think anybody really knows what is going to go on down there until we get in there and operate it. The only thing we know is that we want it to be active and we want it to be used. And we don't want it to be the front door to the Ritz and their private garden and it isn't going to be. "",..'."'...., Tim: I think one of things I feel is that it is going to be a revenue base for the Ritz. How often is it going to be public and how often is it going to be restricted because it is like another ballroom in the hotel. Harvey: It won't be a revenue base for the Ritz because the Ritz will pay to use it the same way anyone else would pay to use it. They only own their hotel. They will pay the operator of the rink and the park--the management. It is going to be set up as a separate operating corporation. There is going to be a full time '- 16 /,<:-.",.., PZMl.7.92 '- manager in charge of promotion, marketing and monitoring and maintenance and overseeing the events. Sara said something here but the fire siren was much louder then she was. Harvey: It is going to have liability insurance and we are going to be damned concerned about what goes on down there. And that is why the signage in the winter and the lighting around the rink at night is going to be such that it is not going to be considered under the insurance policy an attractive nuisance. The insurance company at first said if that is the site, we would like a 6ft chain link fence around the park. And I went "That isn't going to work". Now if the City would like this I don't think I would have a problem convincing Savannah to build it and give it to the city. Bruce: Let's see how much money you lose first before we decide whether we want to take it. Jasmine: This doesn't help us with #16. Sara: I just see it getting restrictive. ~~'" Diane: What I can tell you regarding #16 is if you have any language changes for that I can discuss that with Jed and see if '- there is some way maybe we can fine tune it some more. Sara: The Jerome asked for this. They didn't want to come in every single time for a special event. And they would like to do the very same thing Perry is asking for. Bruce: We have 2 concerns. One we want them to go through whatever they have got to go through to get special events permits. They have got to do that anyway. The other thing we have a concern about is the actual operation. I don't know how we get a handle on that. Whether we require them as a condition of approval to annually submit an operations plan or--I don't know what the answer to that is. Harvey: I can do it after the fact. I can't do it before the fact or we wouldn't be having this discussion because you would have read it. Diane: That is a good point. Bruce: What we don't want to happen is after a year or two of operation we have got a bunch of local people that come in and say "Aw, it is just another Ritz deal here. The thing has been closed off. We can't use it". And they come in here to us and they say ,- 17 PZMl. 7.92 "Well you guys were asleep at the wheel when you approved this ice rink" . What we have got to do is come up with some kind of a mechanism to show that there is some kind of accountability for open operations of the winter garden. Harvey: The intent was that the deed restriction that was filed on the parcel was to give the city the comfort level of the public nature of the site. And maybe what we need to do is give that to P&Z for their review. Let's take it to Jed given their concerns and see if there isn't something that can be incorporated into that deed restriction which is recorded and runs with the title. And that would probably be the instrument that 3 years down the road someone can look back at and say "wait a minute". Bruce: Well, it gives the City pretty much cart blanc. It says "By any and all appropriate means including mandatory injunctive relief". We just about can do anything we want to. But I don't think we want to get to that point. Jasmine: It seems to me this is something that is going to have to come back. We are not going to be able to come up with the appropriate language for either of those options this evening. And I would suggest that we have to come back with that. , ---- Richard: It seems to me recourse is covered in the restrictive covenants--the deed restriction. I think we are re-inventing the wheel here. Harvey: This is a major concern of Council's too. We would like when P&Z forwards this, I would like them to know that this discussion went on and that are view was made of the deed restriction and it was either modified or it was deemed to be adequate or whatever. Jasmine: Unless you want to just go exactly with the deed restriction as written, which I am not sure is correct either, I think we are going to have to review these things again. Bruce: I can live with the restrictive covenant language because I think it gives the City probably more power than Savannah probably thought they were giving away when they gave away that restrictive covenant. So I am satisfied with the restrictive covenant. And I think as a condition of approval that maybe we stick in a condition that they submit an annual operating report to us. Diane: To be reviewed by? Then we get the annual-- 18 " PZMl. 7.92 -- Harvey: Then we get into standards of review and action-- Jasmine: The restrictive covenant isn't mentioned anywhere in here. Bruce: It is already recorded. It is a matter of public record. Diane: on PUD but we What I can do--it is referenced in here in the discussion regarding open space. I refer to it when it was recorded don't spell out the actual language that is in that. Bruce: oath. Let the record show that Perry has been sworn and is under David: Along this point it seems that #18 "All material representations made by the applicant during the public meeting" that Perry has made what I consider material representations that it is their operating intent to make this as open as possible and if there are complaints from the Public I think the City will hear about it and then there is the opportunity for recourse under this deed restriction. Sara: Now #19--I just have a question because what you said was very interesting about Grand Aspen phase II. The continental Inn of course never had to mitigate housing. But when it went to Grand Aspen, was housing mitigation done at that time? _"".'0.""'" -. Harvey: Just a name change. their room count by about 25. As a matter of fact they reduced Sara: It's the whole idea with the tap fee that you--I don't know if we have precedent on this. Reducing the usage of what was there so why should I have housing mitigation? I don't know if I can do that because if you start at ground 0-- Harvey: That hotel was open before employee housing was required. Diane: When you are asking for GMQS exemption for essential public facilities one of the things you are required to do is mitigate your housing. I feel comfortable with our determination on our requiring employee housing for this. And Lot #6 wasn't ever even defined at that time in terms of what kind of review takes place. It states in here that it should be addressed at the time of the review. Richard: Certainly in the process that created this park and rink, it was part of the discussion of the Ritz Carlton Hotel and not part of Phase II redevelopment of the--that was part of the whole package. But it was--it came into the discussion early on as part of the conditions of approval for the Rite Carlton and not rather """.'>>.. 19 <;.... PZMl.7.92 -' than the redevelopment of the Grand Aspen. package. Harvey: All within the PUD. Or of the whole Sara: That's what they call this, too--Aspen Mountain Subdivision. Diane: Let me just tell you because the proposal for Lot 6 is currently in the amendment approval process the final requirement for employee housing has not yet been determined. Nobody was sure as to what the final proposal would look like. And at that time employee mitigation would be addressed. Jasmine: It seems to me appropriate therefore, Diane, that since we now have an employee generation figure for this particular portion any reduction of employees in connection with Phase II which would then affect the rest of the project should be dealt with at Phase II, not with this proposal. Diane: another want to If that is what Perry is saying is appropriate we do PUD on that anyway for Lot 5 so that--that is fine. I just make sure it be of record now. Harvey: I have not seen a the Housing Office response to George from the Ice Garden. But I would like to make the point that the ,- PUD talks about full time equivalent employees. And in the PUD full time equivalent employees to 2,080 hours a year. This staffing report which determines 6. whatever 6.3 employees is based upon operation 10:00am to 10:00pm which is 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 weeks for the winter. It is not the year around operation. So when I sit down with the Housing Authority what has to be determined in order to determine the full time equivalent employees is an annualized number of people. I am not prepared right now to say what that is going to be. Our estimates in talking to the rink management people is this is about right for the winter. In the summer time it is going to be substantially less than that. Diane: Perry, read #19. You are going on and on about something that-- Perry: I just want this Board clear that this 6.,3 is not stuck in their head as we go through the process. Jasmine: Right. We understand. Then we have the additional condition #21 that the trash access area shall be depicted on the final development plan. ''', 20 PZMl. 7.92 - Roger: Because we have deleted #4, I would request that a new #4 be generated. And that is something to the effect that the developer shall pursue energy efficient system of utilizing ways for refrigeration heat for, snow melting. The developer should pursue an energy efficient system of utilizing waste refrigeration heat for snow melting. If you want to get down to it you could snowmelt the whole thing with the waste refrigeration heat. David: Do we need to address the exemption for water tap? Diane: No. Harvey: The park dedication fee? Diane: No. Tim: How about the open space variance? Jasmine: By approving the PUD don't we therefore also approve the open space automatically? '- Diane: If you look at the definition of open space you literally cannot include that area below 2ft of grade which obviously would be some portion of this site. When this was originally approved obviously that particular requirement was not in the code--the definition of open space. My feeling is that is considered open space, considered dimensional requirement that probably because we are operating in a new code they would have to go to the Board of Adjustment but we would support is my feeling. Harvey: Here is my concern on that. Under the PUD when we come in with Lot #5 with the Grand Aspen the PUD acknowledges that the Ice Rink is--would count as the open space or towards the open space for Lot #5. Because we are pushing the FAR to the back of the lot and leaving all of that open, we are going to have less open space. We are not going to be at 25% or 35%--25% requirement just on that Lot #5 without including Lot #6. But under the PUD this Board and the Council can vary the amount of open space that is required. Diane: That is when we look at Lot #5. Harvey: Right. I am going to have enough open space if this counts and it used to count when the PUD was done. That is the conundrum that I am in and when I get back to you guys it is going- - 21 riC'-,",,- PZMl. 7.92 ,- -I am going to be requesting a variation from the 25% open space requirement. Diane: You can get the Board of Adjustment variance or you-- Roger: Why can't we do it within the PUD and basically identify this as a unique parcel that qualifies fully for open space. Diane: We can't. I looked into that. is what excludes the 2ft below grade. have with the definition of the code. The definition in the code So that is the problem we Roger: But this was started before the code changed. So can't we define the fact that this has been an ongoing process? Diane: I would agree with you but the only thing is we--for review of this we operate under the new code. Richard: So it is the same as the Marshall hot tub. Harvey: Well, you guys could make a finding that there is language in the PUD that states that where there is reference made to specific things like FARs, the old code applies. other than that the new code applies. ""-. - Diane: Perry, I thought 4 pages of a review from Jed that says the new code applies to this-- Perry: Does it specifically mention the definition of open space? Diane: No, but come on. Perry: Well, the 115,000sqft of FAR--if you guys changed FAR before--we don't need to go through this here. I got a problem. If P&Z makes a finding that this project because of the unique nature of the Ice Rink would qualify for-- Diane: We would be supportive of you. Richard: Can we make a recommendation to either Councilor the Board of Adjustment whoever would deal with this that we support this as meeting the requirements of open space and hope that they will determine that way? Is that anything that we can do? Harvey: What I would like to see as a finding by this Board forwarded to Council is a recommendation saying that even though the certain amount of this site does not meet the current code definition of open space because it is graded at 2ft below grade, we find that it qualifies with the intent and therefore with the intent of the PUD which states that that should be-- ""- - 22 PZMl. 7. 92 -- Diane: Perry, that still doesn't-- Harvey: Under the PUD can't you vary-- Diane: No. I have looked at this a hundred times. You have to go by the underlying zone district and then you get caught up in the open space requirement. Harvey: Open space can be varied under PUD. Diane: You can vary but the definition of open space can't be varied. Harvey: That is right but this Board can find Diane and Harvey talking at same time here. Diane: That is the recommendation I think you want to get Tim: So that should be #22. Jasmine: So what should #22 say? Diane: #22 should say that the Planning Commission recommends-- Sara: It wouldn't be part of #13? Diane: Actually that would be more appropriate to add it to #13. Jasmine: So #13 will say-- Roger: Just add another sentence "A portion of Diane: That the Planning Commission recommends that the variation of the open space for Lot #5 Harvey: The minimal open space requirement need not be met for Lot #5 because of the creation of the park and Ice Rink on Lot #6. Tim: That this should be considered adequate as open space-- Jasmine: No. We can't do that. That is the thing we can't do. Joe: Maybe you could protect yourself by saying "Provided that the open space provide don Lot #5 conforms with that required under the previous code definition". <C....... We didn't request the variation for open space under the old definition for any of the lots in the PUD. Now it would be -- 23 PZMl. 7.92 necessary. All I am suggesting is as long as we provide enough open space to comply under the old definition then perhaps you would accept that as the extent of the variation that we need under the new definition. Diane: The Planning commission recommends that a--this would be for Lot #5. That a variation from the minimum open space be considered and that the-- Harvey: In light of the creation of Lot #6 as a park. Diane: Fine. Richard: I have a sentence here we can try. That a variation in the minimum open space for Lot #5 be considered due to the subgrade nature of that portion of the Lot #6 park. So we make it specific to this. Tim: Really the construction of the park is changing the qualification. Richard: This would be in addition to #13. "'''''-, Diane: I started out with The Planning Commission recommends that a variation in open space for Lot #5 be considered--and you said '- Richard: Due to the subgrade nature of the Ice Rink portion of the park. Diane: I would just say "Due to the--I would include the entire site because it is not just the Ice Rink. Richard: OK. Due to the subgrade nature of that portion of Lot #6. Bruce: Notwi thstanding the code definition of open space the Planning & Zoning commission recommends that the open space requirement for Lot #5 of the Aspen Mountain Subdivision and PUD shall be reduced by virtue of Lot #6 being utilized as a park. Jasmine: That sounds terrific. Bruce: We don't say we are going to reduce it by 1%, 25% whatever. Harvey: That is fine. Bruce: All we are saying is we are going to consider the fact that they-- '-. Jasmine: That sounds like what we mean. - 24 PZMl. 7 . 92 Richard: My question on that is does that allow them to come back and reduce it further? Harvey: The reality is that we should have come in with Lot #5 as one whole parcel with the Ice Rink as part of it and say "Here is the plan. This is the open space and this is where the FAR is going". And that is how it was approved by council when they said "You can do 115,OOOsqft of FAR on that and we are going to do a park and Ice Rink up here". That is not the case. We agreed to separate Lots #5 and #6 because this had to get built in connection with the Rite. Diane: You will see this when the Lot #5 PUD development plan comes through and you are going to review that like you are reviewing this one. Jasmine asked for comments from the public at this time. There was no comment. MOTION - Jasmine: We have amended the conditions that needed to be amended. I will entertain a motion to approve the amendment to the PUD Subdivision Agreement, the Final PUD Development Plan, Subdivision, GMQS Exemption for Essential Public Facility, Conditional Use Approval for the Skate Rental Building and the Maintenance Building and Special Review for Parking with the conditions as amended. Roger: I so move. Richard seconded the motion with all in favor. Jasmine closed the public portion of the hearing. Jasmine then adjourned the meeting. Time was 7:30pm. ,~- "..,:....., - 25