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Home My WebLink Aboutminutes.apz.19931019 rt~ ,. RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS -- PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION OCTOBER 19. 1993 vice Chairlady Jasmine Tygre called meeting to order at 4:30 P.M. Answering roll call were Tim Mooney, David Brown, Sara Garton and Jasmine Tygre. Bruce Kerr and Roger ~ were excused. COMMISSIONER COMMENTS There were none. STAFF COMMENTS Leslie: We need to schedule a new date for work session on resident occupancy. No date set at this time. PUBLIC COMMENT There were none. MINUTES SEPTEMBER 21. 1993 After one correction from Sara--(area to era) MOTION ( David made a motion to approve minutes of September 21, 1993. Sara seconded the motion with all in favor. ",,-,,- BERGER CONDITIONAL USE REVIEW Continued from October 5. 1993 Jasmine re-opened the hearing. Kim Johnson made presentation as attached in record. Sara: I didn't see trash designated on the drawings. Kim: If you recall the last meeting Dick Fallin mentioned that the little storage area right in front of the stairway is actually a maintenance shed/trash area. I added a condition of approval that says the building permit plans shall indicate the trash/storage area on the premises. Sara: It looks like we hope that car isn't parked there very much. Because first of all it blocks an entrance when the car is parked there and it will block the garbage pickup. But it is a parking space. Kim: The occupant is required to drag the cans out to the street. r- Fallin: The parking stall #2 is 9 feet wide. The building from the property line is 10 and 1/2 feet to the garage door portion of that. It is another 3 and 1/2 feet to 4 feet back to the face of - PZMI0.19.93 the trash room. A car is about 6 feet wide. So if you pull into the middle you have another 18 inches of space there so we will have about 3 feet clear between the garage and the car at the garage door area. Then about 5 and 1/2 to 6 feet from the trash doors to the car. David: I still don't see how this is an improvement in moving the snow away from dumping right in front of the sidewalk. It looks as if it is directing snow right on top of the staircase that leads to the accessory dwelling unit. That new little shed--at least that is covered. ' And you are trying not to put the stairs in the setback because Mr. Drueding won't approve that. In this case that is unfortunate because if those stairs go around the corner in the setback that would solve numerous problems. By putting the stair where it is it is right under the snowshed. Fallin: In the drawing the trash shed roof indicates changing from a pitch of 8 and 12 to 6 and 12. We studied this after we made this application and we have reduced that roof pitch to 4 and 12 which we think will contain the snow and not have any avalanche problem in any of that area. 1''' . ""-'" The area above the door to the ADU we added that shed roof. That will stick out 2 feet from the building and our feeling is that that is going to deflect anything that would pass to someone who would be standing under the roof. Revised notice was presented at this point. (attached in record) Jasmine asked for public comment. There was none and she closed the public portion of the hearing. Jasmine asked if the applicant had any problems with any of the conditions of approval. Fallin: We agree with them. MOTION Tim: I move to approve the conditional use review for the 379 square feet basement level accessory dwelling unit within the proposed Berger residence at 312 West Gillespie as represented in the October 12, 1993 with revised drawings including one of the on- site parking spaces for the ADU with the conditions recommended in the Planning Office memo dated October 19, 1993. (""" Sara seconded the motion with all in favor except David. . _ 2 PZMIO.19.93 ,~ Motion carried. GOLDBERG CONDITIONAL USE REVIEW Jasmine opened the public hearing. Leslie presented proof of public notice. (attached in record) She then made presentation as attached in record. I do have one condition to the 4th condition of approval. In the memo I say "Any increase in the size of the restaurant shall require an amendment to this conditional use. I would also like to add--and this is based on comments I received from Ron Garfield who is a neighbor. He is concerned that because this is not a full-blown restaurant that we are not looking at venting and any fumes and odors that will be caused by full cooking material. He would just like to have the ability in the future if this evolves into a restaurant that has cooking facilities that staff has the ability to look it over and address some of those concerns. ..-"""...... I am suggesting "Any increase in the size of the restaurant or any additional installation of cooking equipment including venting shall require an amendment to this conditional use". ""- Tim: Is this part of the Silver City Grille philosophy? Is it going to have a different name? Goldberg: We haven't gotten as far as a name. It is the same in theory in that it is a local's place open the year around, very low and reasonable pricing. That has always been our philosophy. We feel there is a market for a sandwich shop again catering to locals, convenient and inexpensive. I wouldn't say it is the same. Certainly there isn't going to be any hot food or grilled food, no cooking. A microwave is the extent of hot food. Tim: Doesn't a liquor license refer to having some kind of food? Goldberg: Absolutely. We are going to have plenty of food. Mrs. G: In order for us to exist we have to serve lunch. Otherwise the numbers don't make it for us just to be open as a bar at night. So we have to have the food for income during the daytime and then we are going to have to have food for the same reason in the evening. David: Does this back door walk directly out onto the alley? /"'- '- 3 PZMI0.19.93 '- Mrs. G: Neither of us have been through that door ? David: You are not going to have a dumb waiter? Mrs. G: We are not--the 2 spaces--the upstairs space is not over that space. David: And you don't have any direct connection between the 2 different operations? Goldberg: No. Sara: In your licensing are you asking that liquor can be served upstairs as well? Goldberg: We serve upstairs. Sara: So you cannot go under the same license? Goldberg: We thought we could but they suggested that it wasn't close enough. Jasmine: What are your proposed hours of operation? ""*""''''''", Goldberg: Basically through the late night--Iunch and then through the evening to 1:00 A.M. - David: I assume the dumpster will be off the alley somewhere out the back door. Mrs. G: I went over that with Chuck yesterday. We will not add any more dumpsters. The spaces in back are deemed parking spaces. There are 3 spaces for 5 businesses. Plus the original plan and that area way back ? trash whatever. At that time there was a parking problem. ~question is what is more important? Having a parking that takes 3 spaces or put dumpsters back there that might not be serviceable because you can't get the trash truck back in that area. I don't know how you would get the trash truck back in there during the winter time. The summer time it is easy. We are not adding any more dumpsters. David: The dumpsters are currently in the alley. Mrs. G: As they have been. David: alley" . And the conditions as I read them say "Get them out of the There is no place to get them out of the alley. r'-" I Goldberg: This doesn't change anything. We are not adding any more trash so to speak because we are going to have an extra pick - 4 ,.."........'.... PZMIO.19.93 -- up. We are not planning on putting another dumpster there. That was never an intention. There is just no room for it. Roth: They are a little bit caught between a rock and a hard place. Even if for whatever reasons whatever else happened the city should go after the property owner for having those dumpsters in the alley because they are not supposed to be there and by his building permit in 1976 he provided trash area required and it is there. So it seems like a burden on the Goldbergs to include it at the time but from the big picture perspective it is appropriate. But we need to get those out of there. They shouldn't be there. Leslie: Chuck had a scale that 3 cars do sit back there but they are not "legal parking spaces" for one thing. So there would be no additional credit given if Mr. Long who owns the building wanted to add additional square footage. He couldn I t say "I have 3 parking spaces there". They are not legal parking spaces. /"'""'''''' Chuck has figured out a way probably that the trash dumpsters could accommodated with 2 parked cars there and it would probably be kind of a "Well it is trash day we can't park back there". But we intend to contact Mr. Long about this problem because it is not ? per'se but it was shown when he pulled his building permit when he built the building that this was a trash area and we have been trying to get dumpsters out of the alley and onto private property. It ultimately comes down to if you can't support the impacts of your building on your private property then you are building too big or your uses of the building are not appropriate for your site. We are going to contact the property owner and follow up on this. Tim: These are particularly ugly. There is more garbage on the ground around these dumpsters and runoff coming out of the evaporating units from the refrigeration that freezes on the ground, piles of lettuce get trapped in all the stuff. I think that is a primary-- Sara: Doesn't it also come down to where BFI sets the dumpster down again after it picks it up? They decide where it is more efficient for them to pick it up and drop it off? Mrs. G: Quite often they take the dumpster and put it right along the alley right in front of our stairs and then we push it back so that it mumble that ramp there. We have a constant battle with them to put it in the proper place. Sara: It is the landlord working with the trash pickup too. But that is his responsibility. But BFI decides exactly where they want it to go. "-- 5 PZMI0.19.93 Goldberg: I don't see any problem with it that if Mr. Long was told those spaces have to be used for trash and that's it--it is really not our fault. He just loses a space in the building. The dumpsters could be put back in there. Now whether or not the trash people would be able to pick it up from that spot or would be willing to I don't know. Leslie: I feel that space was never identified as a parking space. In 1976 we probably didn't have a parking requirement in the C-l Zone district for this building. But I think we are trying to get at the overall downtown parking problem in many other ways and that this area was identified for trash and we should pursue and make him put his dumpsters where they should be and not on public property. And if one person parks in the garage and walks to work that is the way it should be. Jasmine asked for public comment. Lisa Miller: I am currently in the space mumble mumble - - .0'" I think that isn I t exactly what the building would be best for because there is an antique sales person upstairs. (more mumble) They have a wine and beer license. Are you looking for liquor? Mrs. G: The same thing we have. Miller: So it just seems like that is the main item they will be selling. I think that is what is going to be happening. I just think that it is going to be great for the building. I don't think it is going to turn on customers any more to come to the gallery next door to see a bar operating. During the summer the doors will be open. The patio is shared by 3 businesses--the restaurant It is just a little further like from here to the corner. It could chase customers away from the gallery people and for the Bon Thai which doesn't have a waiting area either so people kind of wait out in that little courtyard winter or summer and they are going to be mingling with the bar crowd. I think it is a noisy operation. Maybe it gets noisier at night but the antique store is going to be operating after dark. So is the Bon Thai and it already gets noisy there. .1"""-"'"'.... The Silver City Grille is in there and they have got their music cranked because they are cleaning up for the morning. And they are accepting deliveries. The music is loud and it is 9:00 in the morning and I am doing a facial. I am not going to be there and I just think it just sounds like there is loud music. I ended up having to turn mine off. And it is going to be more of the same noise for that building. I don't think it is the situation to have there. There is going to be more trash. And it is their cars that "-' 6 PZMIO.19.93 are back there. And it is very narrow. It is just like a tunnel but narrow as it is from the second floor they throw the trash. And that is why the lettuce and all of the stuff does go allover the place. They don't even walk around and dump it. It is not their responsibility. It is the employees that work for them. They throw it over the railing like it is a basket. It doesn't hit and "So what". So that is a problem. It is already noisy now even in the middle of the day. They have got people smoking and throwing their butts down to the patio and drop their napkins and they don't have anybody clean it up. I just think it is going to be more of the same if not worse of the same because there is going to be more alcohol. I think that is what they are selling and that is the kind of clientele you are going to draw. The alley already gets double parked as it is with people going to the restaurant. It is already a problem. It is not the people from ? and not the people from Bon Thai and not the gallery people. -rt is already their restaurant now that everybody double parks there and parking is a problem around there. I don't know why they don't ticket people when it happens but they don't. ,..,., Goldberg: The owner of the antique store happens to be totally 150% for this. He feels that it can only bring more business and help his business by us having generating more business in the building. So he has absolutely no negative thing on it at all. The people in the gallery feel the same way. They told me that. They are more than happy because they want to stay open late. -- As far as Bon Thai we think that actually we are going to generate more business for them just as we would generate more business for us. We are not a Hard Rock Cafe or a Planet Hollywood. I have a little space. We have got to generate more space. In our restaurant people can't wait anywhere. So in every other restaurant in town people will wait an hour or two hours and spend money at a bar and then sit down and eat dinner. In our restaurant and in Bon Thai the people go in and if they say a 20 minute wait- -they leave. They go somewhere else and spend their money somewhere else because there is nowhere to wait. In the middle of the winter they are not going to wait in the courtyard. So in fact we believe we are going to help Bon Thai because their customers can now when they say 20 minute wait they can go and say "0h here is a little bar, we can go in and sit and have drink and when they are ready they will come here and get us". And that was our intention as well. To have a place where people can wait so they don't leave and go somewhere else. ,,""~ As far as the noise we are in the middle of the commercial core. ,- 7 PZMI0.19.93 There is no one living there. This is a business area. We are across the street from Boogie's, Ozzies. I don't think we make any more noise than anywhere else. I don't see the place at night as being any sort of noisy, wild crazy noise-blasting place. That is not our style. And the reason why there is a lot of activity is because we cater to the local people because we offer a good product for a reasonable price and people like it. So sure we are going to generate activity. That is the whole idea of the thing. I don't see that as a negative thing. We have to make a living here. Leslie: The criterion that you review is that conditional use is consistent and compatible with the character of the immediate vicinity. The C-l Zone district requires restaurants to be conditional use because the C-l Zone District is not in the downtown core, and it is kind of more toward the fringes of that boundary between residential and commercial. In this block if you consider the surrounding businesses and uses, in my review of the application I found that it was compatible with surrounding uses. You should look at the consistency and compatibility with the surrounding neighborhood. And you should also look at the operating characteristics in noise, trash and things like that. The other thing is you are being asked to approve a restaurant for this location. This could change. The Goldbergs could sell to somebody else and they could operate it differently. That is why I have the conditional approval in there that any increase in the size and increase in basically the intensity of the use of this space should be reviewed as an amendment to their conditional use. Jasmine asked if there was any further public comment. There was none and she closed the public hearing. Sara: I would like to entertain another condition. I think the landlord, Mr. Long, has been negligent in property management of this building. Especially with the way the uses are going now. If we approve another restaurant it is more impact on this building and on the amenities and the public areas around it. I think that there needs to be more caretaking facilities. Jasmine: We have run into this problem before where the business owner is not the landlord of the building. And we have a hard time because the conditions that we like to have as part of the recommendation of an approval really devolve on the landlord rather than the applicant. The applicant is caught in the middle in this kind of a situation. For the most part there is really not much the applicant can do about it because it is not their building. And I don't see that we really have a way of enforcing the conditions of approval through the landlord who is actually the ,..... one who is going to be responsible for them. '- 8 PZMI0.19.93 Leslie: So you are really only talking about condition #2. Jasmine: That is true. But it has to do with the maintenance of the building which is something the applicant really can't control. Sara: Why isn't the landlord a co-applicant on conditional uses? Leslie: Technically they are. Every application we get into our office we have to have the permission of the landlord to take their building through the process. So it is up to the applicants to get their permission. Mr. Long has said he is aware they are seeking to put a restaurant in this space and that they have to go through he conditional use process. Roth: The approval goes with the land. vacates, the approval is still there. If the current tenant '- Tim: This is a stretch for me. I am all for expanding the Silver city Grill and I am all for a local restaurant operator having every availability to do the right kind of job. But in this building and this location this is a stretch for me. And just to hear the applicant speak that what he sees as that this is going to be an appendage of the Silver City Grille with people waiting and Bon Thai is going to use the same thing, I now see a restaurant that is the si'ze of Silver City Grille and Bon Thai together with a waiting area this size at the bar and 1 bathroom and the bathroom for the Silver City Grill is outside and around the back. Now if any other restaurant came before us and had the number of seats that Bon Thai has and Silver City Grille has in that kind of area and had 1 bathroom in their bar, we wouldn't even be coming close with this application. c,',.'.... Mrs. G: There is 2 bathrooms and Bon Thai has I. Tim: 2? So now we have a restaurant that has seating in the bar for 30 and we have dinner seating which is Bon Thai and silver City Grille with 30 apiece. We are now looking at a completely different type of facility here in this building. And I don't know--to me it is a stretch. It just doesn't seem like this layout is really going to enhance the character of the restaurant business that is in this building. It is going to be a bar. There is no doubt about it and it is going to be a waiting room. But is this really something that the zoning needs a special amendment to? I don't know. Leslie: So you are suggesting that we shouldn't even have brought before you as a conditional use because you are saying it is not a restaurant. "......... '-' 9 PZMI0.19.93 '"._~ Tim: It is not a restaurant. It is basically going to serve a need that Bon Thai has and that Silver city Grille has. If anybody else came before us with a restaurant application that had dinner seating for 80 people like Bon Thai and Silver City Grille do in this building they would have bathrooms. They would have storage. They would have garbage. They would have their whole scene together. But to piecemeal together different bunch of parts that all of a sudden are the whole, I don't get it here. And I am having trouble saying this because I want to encourage this kind of business. David: I have some mixed feelings as Tim does. I can see where this is very complimentary to the existing business upstairs. But it is not adjacent so I have to look at it as a separate business completely. I don't see an adequate food service area that I can see where there is a food service to prepare food. I question whether or not whether having I bathroom that is handicap accessible meets that code. - My biggest concern is the trash. Looking up the restaurant definition it says that a restaurant shall be required to have a service delivery access from the alley or other off-street service delivery area. If the restaurant is located off ground level it shall have the use of an elevator or dumb waiter service access. The space upstairs doesn't have that. This space is also off the main level and doesn't have an elevator or dumb waiter. I can see the lack of that direct flow to the outside both for serving and removal of trash really makes operations difficult and perhaps indirectly contribute to the nature of the alley. This does not meet the strict definition of restaurant. So one could say this is not a restaurant because it does not meet that definition. On the other hand I have worked in restaurants that didn't have elevators or dumb waiters and the food got in and the garbage got out. I disagree with Jasmine's point. It is the responsibility of the tenant to manage their own garbage. One can take on that responsi- bility. I think management of garbage is your responsibility. Whether you or the landlord has to carry the garbage is immaterial. That is something that is negotiable between you. And I think it is incumbent--I think that is the real key condition. Sara: I think it is very important to have the landlord here for these hearings for a conditional use. Leslie: Chuck and I have already talked about the trash dumpsters and intend to follow up on this with the landlord. Jasmine: The conditional use application has the potential to 10 PZM10.19.93 exacerbate that situation. And they are objectional types of trash. So this is really a concern for the other tenants in the building and the people whose buildings are nearby. And I think that is a serious problem. I am concerned about the intensification of this use. One of the things about conditional uses is that we don't really take into account often enough is the accumulative effect of what happens as you have 1 restaurant which is OK, another which is OK. I am not sure at what point you get to where the intensity of use really becomes detrimental to a particular area. I am really on the borderline on this one. Sara: When I first read this application I thought "What an impact. It is going to be a heavy restaurant district". But your appeal is very good--that there is no waiting space. But if the food service intensifies I can see where it is going to be a whole other duck. And that becomes more than just a restaurant review. MOTION Leslie: Based upon what you are suggesting and then adding my language--"Any increase in the size of the restaurant, the use or any additional installation of cooking equipment including venting shall require an amendment of this conditional use to be reviewed by the Planning & Zoning commission". Sara: I move to approve the conditional use for the replacement of Elli's Salon with a restaurant at 308 South Hunter Street with the conditions recommended in the Planning Office memo dated October 19, 1993 with the amended #4 condition as presented. Motion died for lack of a second. David: I guess because of the intensity of the use for this particular configuration and because of the definite--I think at this particular location and how this change in use would affect the characteristics of operation of the building and the various conditions that we have to address including the operating characteristics the impacts on vehicular circulation, parking, trash, service delivery, odor and the surrounding properties of the neighborhood-- MOTION David: I move to deny this application because it does not conform with the strict definition of restaurant and requirements for a dumb waiter and elevator. "'"-- 11 ,r-" PZMI0.19.93 ',,-- Leslie: Point of clarification. So at one point you questioned whether this was even a restaurant. David: I am saying right now interpreting that it doesn't have the things that the definition of a restaurant requires. Tim seconded the motion. Leslie: My question is if the motion were to carry-- David: They can come back with an elevator. Leslie: OK. That's what you are looking for. guidance in this land use. I need some David: A couple of things. For example--across the street at Mezzaluna the trash is on the alley but it is recessed in. So it is on the property. It is covered. It is protected from snow. This building in this particular location--the operating characteristics of that alley the way it is existing, the intensity of use is almost too much for that alley and those dumpsters to handle as it is currently operated. I see this as intensifying the use and demands on that alley and on those dumpsters. /"""'" ''^- For me to jump for this I would want to see a couple of things. One would be a management plan in a graphic form of how they are going to resolve and operate their trash and how they are going to get food service in and out of the building in conformance with the definition of a restaurant. This is a separate use so it could be a separate restaurant and a restaurant definition is drinking and food. Across the street they are serving package food at the coffee shop and they have only got 200 feet of counter space for their package food and that is about what is here and so I can see that there is food prepared on site and served and so it does follow the strict definition of food and drinking establishment. Leslie: Hence the conditional use review. David: That is right. I have elected not to approve this conditional use application primarily because it will exasperate already problematic operational characteristics. Leslie: So if the applicant discusses with the landlord these problems and the landlord agrees to rectify the problems and they came back to us with a plan of how they are going to move the dumpsters on site and cover them and catch the liquid-- l'''';-;~ David: Handle the odors. "- 12 .' PZMI0.19.93 -- Tim: with the Silver City Grille and Bon Thai what we are talking about is a different space here--the location, the size, the design, the characteristics do not minimize adverse affects on the building or on the area. So my opinion is that it is in the wrong location. It is going to be trying to do the wrong things at the wrong times for the wrong purposes. It might fit someplace else closer to the Silver city Grille and in addition to the Silver City Grille's facility that they then expand into a real restaurant and have bathrooms and mitigate a restaurant. But to tack something off like stick out your thumb and that is a bar that works for this restaurant, that doesn't work for me either. So I think there is more than that. You can't just come in and clean up Silver city Grille's problems with the landlord. Silver City Grille basically if they need a bar and a waiting room, they have to re-design their restaurant. They can't just stick another room on it that is down-stairs and at the other end of the building. And I think this addresses that: "Location, size, design, operating characteristics of the proposed conditional minimize adverse affects". To me they do not. There being no further discussion--Roll call vote-- (The motion is to deny the condition) Tim, yes, David, yes, Sara, no, Jasmine, yes. Motion carries 3 to 1. Leslie: So we heard from P&Z that you don't want--don't come back with a trash plan or anything like that unless it is an extension attached to the restaurant. Tim: That is how I feel. Sara: I voted against the motion but what I heard was that the impacts were so great that one of the strict conditions of review was that it not be exacerbate. David: If there are ways to clean up those problems, the noise, the trash, the odor and improve the operating characteristics and demonstrate unequivocally that an increase in use can be handled then I have no problem entertaining their cause. Jasmine: I don't think we can give them anything more specific other than whatever they could do to make this less of a problem and they may come up with solutions that have not occurred to us which would certainly be welcome. _' David: The big problems I think I heard from everyone were trash, '- 13 ,,.....'.0 "'- PZMI0.19.93 deliveries, circulation of customers in getting in and out, double parking, noise. Tim: I think if you are going to sell Bon Thai as part of your plan, bring Bon Thai in here and say how they are mitigating how they are going to handle their trash, where the recycling is for this new volume of trash and bring the landlord in and have the landlord say he is willing to have Silver city Grille's volume and Bon Thai's volume linked to a bar that is now a waiting room that is going to increase the volume of this building and increase the impacts, increase the smells, the parking, the activity, the whole thing. Maybe that will work. It is very fragmented for me and as much as I want to encourage you to do a higher volume of business, to squeeze it out of the location under the circumstances I think is an adverse impact. Jasmine: What would be very helpful is that you might want to talk to some of the other tenants of the building and the landlord and see if you can come up with something that would indicate a co- operative plan for the building which I think would be a tremendous asset to everybody. - Tim: Then we will know the impacts and what kind of volume the bar is going to do because it has 80 seats of people that are coming and going and waiting. We will be able to measure what the smells, the traffic the garbage that is going to be from this building. Obviously I don't think it works now. It is hard for me to over- impact something that doesn't work. /"'......... The business portion of the meeting was then adjourned. Time was 5:55 P.M. commissioners then continued with ....r' 14