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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19931207 A.,yU RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS PLANNING , ZONING COMMISSION DECEMBER 7. 1993 Chairman Bruce Kerr called meeting to order at 4:30 P.M. Answering roll call were David Brown, Sara Garton, Roger Hunt and Bruce Kerr. Jasmine Tygre was excused. Tim Mooney arrived shortly after roll call. COMMISSIONER COMMENTS David Brown started discussion on the lack of P&Z' s part in planning regarding transportation. STAFF COMMENTS Leslie: We are in the process of revamping our Growth Management process. Discussion was then regarding scheduling joint meetings with County P&Z, BOCC and City Council. PUBLIC COMMENTS There were none. MINUTES SEPTEMBER 7. 1993 Sara: I move to approve minutes of September 7, 1993. Roger seconded the motion with all in favor. THE GAP CONDITIONAL USE REVIEW SATELLITE DISH Bruce opened the public hearing. Kim made presentation affidavit of posting. as attached in record. (attached in record) She presented Bruce asked for public comment. There was none and he closed the public portion of the hearing. MOTION Roger: I move to approve a Conditional Use for a 1. 2 meter satellite dish antenna on the roof of the Gap building located at 204 S. Galena with the condition recommended in the Planning Office memo dated December 7, 1993. (attached in record) David seconded the motion with all in favor. PZM12.7.93 HUFTY CONDITIONAL USE ATTACHED ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT Bruce opened the public hearing. Kim made presentation as attached in record. affidavit of notice. (attached in record) She presented Dick Fallen, Architect for applicant made presentation using photos and drawings. Bruce asked Fallen if they had any problems with the conditions of approval. Fallen: We didn't see anything that was a problem for us. COMMISSIONER COMMENTS Roger: What would have been the hallway into the bedroom--I would like to see that as an additional closet space for the studio. Sara: I agree. I think in this case this could be done. Bruce: There is nothing in the standards for our Conditional Use Review for an accessory dwelling unit that gives us any authority. Roger: Except it is a conditional use. Bruce: But the closets are not the standards we look at in Conditional Use Review. Bruce asked for public comment. There were none. Sara: Because we talk about light and quality of life and sound acoustics, can't storage be part of the review? MOTION David: I move to approve the Conditional Use for a basement accessory dwelling unit square footage to be filled in later by the staff with the conditions recommended in the Planning Office memo dated December 12, 1993 with 2 additional conditions to read-- Condition #7 "The accessory dwelling unit shall have acoustical insulation between that unit and the main dwelling unit to meet UBC Chapter 35--sound continuing requirements. And Condition #8 to encourage the applicant to modify the storage area to provide an additional 9 square feet of storage for the accessory dwelling unit. 2 PZM12.7.93 Sara seconded the motion. Fallin: The thing I want to be careful about is that 9 square feet may, because it had a limit on it, have been a requirement of the overall light and ventilation requirement. If I include that area in I don't think--I can't make this area any larger. After further discussion-- Bruce: The motion encourages the applicant to include that 9 square foot closet with no obligation to do so. Tim: Maybe we can encourage the applicant also along the same lines to try and come back to us as soon as possible and keep this original plan and keep every detail that is in there so that it is as easy a conversion that you can make. This was the first one that I saw of these ADUs that I really thought had a little pizazz, had a little room, had a nice hallway. And now it is back down to normal. The guy has got a cave. Roger: I would like the motion maker to state it in a way that if that 9 square feet does not require the addition of that window that it be utilized as closet for the studio as opposed to just generally encouraging it. Fallin: As long as we don't have to put the window in, I don't think she would have major objection to this. David: I would like to leave the motion the way it is. Bruce closed the public portion of the hearing. Everyone then voted in favor of the motion except Roger and Bruce. Bruce: My reason for voting "No" is I wouldn't have added that 8th condi tion at all. It is not that I am opposed to the ADU. Actually I would rather have the door taken out between the main house and the ADU than have the closet over there. I understand all the reasons why a door makes sense. The concern we have is that people are just building bigger houses and calling that space an ADU when, in fact, it really is just part of the main house. And when there is a door connecting a rec room with this ADU, it just kind of appears that this is the possibility. That is our concern. 3 PZM12.7.93 TRANSIERRA STREAM MARGIN REVIEW Kim: Made presentation as attached in record. After short discussion: MOTION: Roger: I move to approve the Transierra stream Margin Review with one condition of 4 parts on planning Office memo dated December 7, 1993. (attached in record) David seconded the motion with all in favor. BCS CHANGE IN USE AND CONDITIONAL USE REVIEW (Howard Bass) No action was necessary on this. KRAUT AH SUBDIVISION RESOLUTION Leslie made presentation. (attached in record) There was discussion regarding streetscape and parking. Sara, Tim and Bruce stated they did not want the curb going out. Roger: I would rather not have the curb out. But if the City Council is going to put this curb out we better tell them if you are going to put the curb out, whatever you do don't put it out all 12 feet or whatever it is. Sara: I wouldn't change my motion. to get that message. I wanted them stay in line. I did not want city Council to know the sidewalk should Tim: Right. Roger: Then I think the Commission should strongly recommend this to Council. David: Having had an off-the-record-extemporaneous run-in with a city Council member on this particular issue it was communicated to me very clearly that Council wants to eliminate cars in town. And anything Council can do to make Aspen inhospitable to automobiles they are going to do. Tim: It will work if there is another place for them to go. But there is not. 4 PZM12.7.93 David: That is why the HOV lane is there. eliminate cars and encourage the use of RFTA. Their goal is to Tim: By taking cars off the street it is going to drive everybody crazy who does have to have their car down there. David: Hence my recommendation that we have some say in the parking, traffic, transportation and other issues that relate to the number of planning issues and quality of life for closer neighborhoods. Tim: This goes back to my whole statement during this review that Kraut is out in left field from where it started out. And so is the Superblock. They are 2 separate projects that don't provide the parking and the parking was the original seed that planted this whole Superblock thing. And the addi tion of Kraut in the Superblock just facilitated, to me, the City being able to be in the parking space business and provide parking for people. Roger: We should strongly recommend this until there is alternative parking in the immediate area established. David: The indoor alternative transportation method. Tim: Absolutely. Roger: Then we can open up the issue of if they want to eliminate that parking. Bruce: We are unanimous about wanting to keep the parking there and not move the curb, Leslie. Tim: This is a controversial space for me. Did they just all of a sudden gain 5 foot 6 inches of grass so that they can landscape this? I wasn't in favor of that. Leslie: Remember there is no sidewalk there now. Discussion over drawings-- Tim: So it is parking plan B--streetscape B. Roger: Should we put "To Council--streetscape alternative B (existing street section) and then add onto the end of that--until alternative parking has come on line in the immediate area". Leslie: My question with you all is did I hear correctly in that if the Council is going to go with Alternative streets cape A we don't want all that increase to go to one side of the street? 5 PZM12.7.93 Roger: If that is the case and we cannot add anything along that line, I would like to put the clarifier "The Commission strongly recommends" in that WHEREAS. Bruce: We can change the WHEREAS's. Roger: Well then why not in that WHEREAS indicate "with the addi tion of that a clause "Until there has been approval for alternative parking in the immediate area". Leslie: WHEREAS the Commission strongly recommends to Council streets cape B alternative (existing street section) for angle parking on the block public parking Commission believes it is important (she read very fast here) on the Kraut congested portion of the downtown and WHEREAS the Commission would encourage changing this proposal if alternative parking in the area is constructed. Bruce: I am not sure I am ready to buy into that. I would still want to look at whatever we are talking about doing. And who knows conditions may have changed. We may still need that street. Leslie: If we are going to a larger parking garage underneath the Kraut, you will review that whole thing. Bruce: We just want them to do what we approved. That is the bottom line. Let's don't monkey with it. Just tell them to do what we approved. Roger: Except how about the addition of the word "strongly". Bruce: I would go for that. David: That's fine with me. Tim: I would like to try and communicate my misunderstanding. And even now correct the direction that the City Council is going in with the Superblock. It seemed like curtis and Harry Teague had in their planned philosophy that they were to eliminate parking spaces and that that was city Council's directive. If this is going on and Council is working in that direction, I am clearly not in favor of a Superblock where we are eliminating parking. And I think that that is something that we need a work session or some kind of communication on that is opened up with city Council to find out just what they think they are accomplishing with the Superblock and what we think we are accomplishing by voting favorably on underground parking structure that then allowed Bell Mountain, city Market, Buckhorn to re- develop with additional commercial space and build a new building right next to the Butcher's Block there that would allow new 6 PZM12.7.93 commercial development in that area. If that is the tradeoff that we have to have for a net gain in underground parking spaces, I am willing to see that commercialization. We are not getting a net gain if we are just building spaces that will satisfy what is already there when this new commercialization is built. I am not willing to see that whole end of town become another little shopping mall for City Market's pleasure. Sara: I didn't feel that Jim and Harry were trying to push no parking. Bruce: Harry was. Tim: Harry was. David: I absolutely got that feeling. Sara: But Jim said "Here is the menu". And he put down the different amounts of parking and said "Now City Council is getting cost on all of these and then it will depend on cost". Tim: That was his menu and he is in it for a salary. He is basically--it is a job to him. It was not a menu for me. I didn't agree with any of that menu. I think there is a completely different menu and there is a lot of parking that we can put in that center of town--that corner of town so that this whole commercial center is a net gain of parking spaces. They are off the street. They are underground and this is a place where people can pay to park. Sara: I often think they should get other bids on what it is going to cost for utilities. Tim: Absolutely! I talked to John Bennett about this. I went to a meeting where there was a Kraut property work session. John Bennett told me it was $130,000 to $300,000 in estimated cost to put this wiring underground. And I said "Well, in a $30 million dollar project "So what". And he said "It just seems like that is the big stumbling block". And that is as far as he went with it. And that is as far as my discussion went with him. I didn't have any more time in this meeting to say "What are you guys really talking about here?" Sara: Especially when you are getting commercial space. Tim: Especially when you are allowing them to come in and re- design the entire commercial space in that area with more commercial, not necessarily neighborhood commercial that we are 7 PZM12.7.93 looking for. Leslie: What I recommend is that as far as the Superblock goes the Council needs to get with you and talk to you about this. Every text amendment that is proposed, every rezoning that is proposed, every special review--the whole review of this project comes before you first. I would recommend that there be a session just with Council and P&Z. Tim: I goes back to this whole philosophy that here is Cunniff and his team of planners and his team of investors putting their plan together with their alternatives. They are going to start with twice as much as they need and twice as much profit built in. And Then they are going to negotiate down. And here we hear 45 days worth of planning in 45 minutes and have to make a decision. I would like to sit down with City Council and be able to say "Now this is what we are willing to pass. This is what we want to create. This is what we want to include. This is what we want to eliminate." And philosophically we have got to fight for these points. We will give them this if they give us this. And I think that is the way it has got to go. Especially on such a big project where the commercial core is really going to be changed. It is going to be impacted and the whole traffic patterns then are going to change. David and I went to a bunch of different sessions. We were the ones who planted the seed by saying our net gain has to be is a better cluster of this parking crap. And if we take it off the seeds by planned parking permits and meters and stuff it is not just going to go away. It has to go somewhere. Now what we want to do is create--and this is the key word--PLAN--a place for it to go. And now the plan has been chopped up by the housing guys. curtis wanted to bring his project in on line before the Superblock. It couldn't wait. Harry Teague--and if it was going to be a public project why weren't there bids and stuff like that? That's another thing you and I discussed. Where did this curtis and Harry Teague team come from? That all of a sudden has a plan that is now they are going their way. We are left with the Superblock and a pile of crap here and Kraut is sitting over here with curtis and Harry Teague's plan and they are going ahead with it. The balls got dropped when we were juggling them here. And before I go deeper into this thing I think at least city council has to go back and re-reason with us to go ahead together. I can't have Harry Teague telling me that he designed this project to eliminate parking spaces. That was the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Roger: I want to emphasize what Tim brought out about this deal about the Superblock. The whole point of the parking in that 8 PZM12.7.93 vicinity is to allow the community to start eliminating parking spaces elsewhere. There is a place to put them. That is why we strongly recommend on this one WHEREAS of that angle parking or existing treatment until we get a place that that parking can go. Tim: In my view I am willing to see city Market's parking lot eliminated and the green space and all of that enhancement of that whole block. I am willing to see that change. But only at a gain for the citizens of the town--not for a gain of the commercial landlords who want to develop more space. And what the citizens in town that I think I am speaking for want is a place to put these cars. And a place to put cars that come down off the pass. Let them drive right into a parking garage, then let the people walk in the downtown core. People who live in Mountain Valley and all that whole area--Iet them park over there. Let them come in and keep their cars off the street. Let's put them underground, not necessarily just to give City Market a whole new look and create a whole new commercial mall on that end of town. I am willing to see it change only if we can live with it. Roger: If it is a mutual benefit. Tim: Exactly. with a net gain of us eliminating a parking problem. And right now with the Kraut property we just cut off 3 toes on our foot to get through this whole process. Leslie: The property is only 15,000 square feet. becoming very clear to Harry Teague and Jim and myself trying to cram too much on it. And it was that we were Tim: That 15,000 square feet means a lot more if it is part of the Superblock. If we had a comprehensive plan--we just cut ourselves off from doing that. Lesl ie: That is why the feel ing was "Let's go for as much neighborhood commercial space as we can on the Superblock and try and quit cramming the ___?___ on the Kraut property. Tim: Well, whose decision was that? Sara: Council said we want housing there. It was bought with housing funds. We don't think we are allowed to put commercial-- Bruce: Tim, the arguments you are making are the arguments I made back when we did the zoning on this. And I said "I am not ready to rezone this until we get the whole Superblock plan". And I was a minority of 1. 9 PZM12.7.93 Tim: You have been here longer than me. So you knew how deluded and foggy it was going to get. with curtis's lobbying, with Teague's clout, there is a project that is-- Bruce: None of us want to appear obstructionist to employee housing. That is not politically expedient to be that way. And by voting against the zoning to change the zoning to AH, you are perceived that way when that may not have anything to do with the reason that you vote against changing zoning. Sara: I believe in housing in that place. Bruce and Tim: I do too. Tim: I don't believe in the way it was planned this time. It is not a good plan. David: This is a large project and it is very complicated. There are so many entities involved. Your goals are goals that I agree with. Given the multi-headed nature of the ownership of the approval process it is almost impossible--there is County money that was targeted just for housing, day care. There is City money. It is so hard to pull all of that together that we can't dictate this. Leslie: There is always the possibility to connect the garages underneath. You are not eliminating that prospect. David: If they are not built at the same time it is going to be almost impossible. Leslie: Timing became a huge issue. The cost of moving the sewer line out of the alley to move it around so it would go down around Hyman Street--part of that $350,000 to move that, that didn't take into account the fact that all the users upstream from that sewer line that had to be disconnected and have to be re-routed. Tim: Think about it 5 years from now. How difficult it is going to be. Think about it 10 years from now--how we are going to shoot ourself in the foot when cars are still around--we still have the same problems. We have the opportunity in front of us now to really make a super deal between people who are going to be able to build commercial space and in the umbrella of that whole financing package, build parking. We need the parking. They want the commercial development. They do it for us. It, is a perfect kind of private/public venture we have got in front of us and we are letting it dissolve here. And 10 years from now we are never going to have an opportunity like this. It is going to cost twice as much. It is going to be twice as many moving parts and people. 10 PZM12.7.93 And without planning the whole thing I am really frustrated. Commission voiced they wanted to attend Council meetings when Kraut application was scheduled. Leslie: You can be at the meeting of Monday December 13 for first reading. I also strongly recommended to Council that they have a work session with you on this. Bruce: Before second reading. Leslie: Second reading on the Kraut is going to ge January 10th. What Curtis wants to do is not have Council act on it that he wants it to be a construction bid to see whether they need to adjust the categories of the housing. Bruce: If I hear Tim right what he wants to be sure of is the Council at least has an equal ear tuned to us in the same way that they are tuned to Jim or Harry or whoever. Leslie: At Monday night's meeting for first reading when curtis is going to be asking decisions on the Kraut property to say yes or no to only one level of parking at Kraut. What he is asking us to do is cut off 3 of their toes when they don't know what is going to happen with the Superblock. Bruce: And he is going to ask for the streets cape A. Sara: That we don't want. After further discussion it was decided P&Z should be at the City Council meeting of December 13, 1993. MOTION David: I move to approve this resolution #93-27 to include the word "strongly" recommend a work session with P&Z on the Kraut application. Roger seconded the motion with all in favor. There being no further business Bruce declared the meeting adjourned. Time was 6:45 P.M. 11