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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19790731 BRADFORD PUBLISHING CO., DENVER ,.__,_ __"'_~.^.___"'___' ,_._,.., _______.~,,_.._,,__m-,~ RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Aspen Planning and zoning Commission July 31, 1979 Special Meeting The Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission held a special meeting on July 31, 1979, at 5:00 PM in the City Council Chambers. Members present were Olaf Hedstrom, Welton Anderson, Nancy McDonnell, Lee Pardee, Perry Harvey and Roger Hunt. Also present were Karen Smith and Richard Grice of the Planning Office and City Attorney Ronald Stock. L-l Code Amendment Reconsideration Smith introduced the item. The P&Z is to consider an amendment to the L-l zone district to add duplexes, single family and multifamily residences as a permitted use. The request is being brought by Rich Sabbatini who asks that the P&Z sponsor this amendment. Smith felt that the last consideration by the P&Z was not clear on their support. She asked that they consider the impacts in the L-2 district since an amendment allowing single family and duplexes in that zone. She noted a map showing the potential buildout in the L-l and L-2 district. Currently, the potential in the L-l district is for 9,000 square feet which translates to 18 lodge units; this property is owned by Mr. Sabbatini who wishes to convert the existing residential units to duplex condominiums. She noted that this code amendment may encourage conversions from lodge uses to condominium multi- family uses which is not the intent of the district. The P&Z would have control over this with the condominiumization reviews. She also noted that if kitchens were added, this would put it under the GMP. She said there have been two duplexes either built or proposed in L-2 since the amendment and she knows of very little other land that has that poten- tial. She asked for the P&Z's opinion of this amendment. Hedstrom asked if the amendment to L-2 opened the way for condominiumization of the lodges. Smith said no, the amendment merely added single family and duplex. She suggested adding single family and duplex and not multifamil~ thereby avoiding that potential for conversion. She introduced Rich Sabbatini. Sabbatini stated that he owns Lots K-O, Block 77, which used to be the Pines Lodge. When he purchased the property five years ago, he converted it to apartments and has rented it as apartments since. He lives there himself. His intent in buying the property was to improve it but never intended to operate it as a lodge. They are a nonconforming use in their district. He submitted a list of uses in the L-l zOne which showed a SO/50 split between lodge units and condomin- iums or townhouses. They wish to build 5-6 townhouses, sell three or four, live in one and rent one. There are presently 6 units on the property. Smith asked if they wish to construct three duplexes. Sabbatini said they have not decided yet. Harvey asked the potential of the property Smith said he could build 18 lodge units going through the GMP. Harvey asked if he would have to go through GMP for the duplexes. Smith said no since he would not be convertinc the use. Pardee said the intent of the L-l zone is to en- courage short term uses. He would be in favor of single family or duplexes if there were a deed restriction for short term. Sabbatini noted there are 250+ condominiums within the L-l district with no rental restrictions. Joan Klar entered the meeting. Anderson asked if they would see this application if the amendment passed. Smith said if he wished to construct single family dwellings or duplexes or reconstruct the multifamily, he would not need the review. If he wished to condominiumize, he would go through the review. She noted a dilemna in the code; it encourages the construction of lodges in the L-l district and discourages the conversion of lodges uses but the condominiumization regulation dis- courages displacement of Low, Moderate and Middle income families. Historically, this property has rented to this -2- Special Meeting July 31, 1979 8040 Greenline Yarbrough Single Family House Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission income bracket. Hunt felt they were whittling down the intent of the zone. Hedstrom said a part of the GMP is to limit the increase in the number of lodge. He felt this followed this intention of the GMP. Hunt felt the intention was to space out this growth over the years. Pardee felt they were opening the door for many of the lodge units to be taken off that market. Hedstrom agreed with this. McDonnell noted that there are many lodges in need of repair. She felt this would en- courage these lodges to convert to apartments. Sabbatini supported the amendment and noted this is the only underdeveloped piece of property in this zone. Anderson suggested allowing this as a conditional use rather than a permitted use. Pardee asked if the applicant could renovate his building. Stock said he can repair up to 10% of the replacement cost of the structure in any calendar year. Anything further must be heard by the Board of Adjustment. Harvey added that he can apply to the GMP for a lodge. Anderson again suggested the conditional use approach. Stock said they could not consider the displacement of certain income brackets in a conditional use hearing. Bil Dunaway asked if this is a public hearing, Smith noted the public hearing was held June 5th and was closed. Hunt moved not to reconsider the L-l code amendment at this time primarily because the L-l area has historically been an area designated for the accommodation of tourists and to allow a significantly lower use in that area puts the tourist pressure in other zoning areas in the community, Klar seconded. Harvey agreed with the intention of Hunt's motion but felt they were keeping nonconforming, long term rental, low density units in the L-l where Sabbatini was attempting to upgrade his structure. He noted that any other lodge would go through GMP to convert. Smith corrected her previous statement to,: say the public hearing was not held since this is a request to set a public hearing on the amendment. Roll call vote: Anderson, nay; McDonnell, ayei Pardee, aye; Harvey, nay; Klar, aye; Hunt, aye; Hedstrom, aye; Motion passed. Smith introduced the application. The current access is from the ski slope in the summer. The Engineering Depart- ment noted this was the result of a subdivision that was approved in 1959 and it was annexed without condition. The Planning Office recommends that P&Z give special atten- tion to the questions of visual impact and integration with the natural terrain from an area and bulk standpoint and considerations of slope stability. She submitted photos from the applicant drawn to scale showing how the building integrates with its surroundings. Smith noted that they have not accomplished the soils review and asked that they table action for this input. Hedstrom asked what they could do for the access, parking and fire access problems. Hunt felt they could approach this problem by limiting the number of people affected. Stock noted that on the Bliss approval, adjacent to this property, the p&Z's conditions of approval were that they use fire resistent materials or a sprinkler system, place a fire hydrant near the structure and store a fire hose in the area and a covenant of indemnity to not hold the City responsible for any damage, personal or property, in case of fire. '-' 'wII BRADFORD PUBLISHING CO., DENVER -3- RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission July 31, 1979 Special Meeting Pinball Palace, Conditional Use Public Hearing Tim Hagman, representing the applicant, stated that he worked with Willard Clapper of the Fire Department to find the best solution to the fire access problem. They propose a 2" dry line from Galena to the northern property line. They would install a fire cabinet with necesSary equipment. Clapper felt the hydrant installed for the Bliss dwelling is too far to be any good to this property. He also did not feel a sprinkler system was necessary, He was agreeable to installing one hour fire protection. He noted they would retain the grove of Aspen trees on the property. Hunt suggested a site inspection and the Board agreed. Hagman said he would stake out the structure with one stake showing the height of the roof. Anderson moved to postpone action on 8040 Greenline Review for the Yarbrough single family house to the regular meeting next Tuesday, August 7, McDonnell seconded, Smith noted there would soils information at that meeting. All in favor, motion approved. Grice introduced the application. He noted that this was approved on July 20, 1978, with the condition that the P&Z has the right to re-review the application after one year. One June 19, 1979, the P&Z voted to exercise this option and set a public hearing. The Planning Office solicited comment from John Goodwin of the Aspen Police Department, Pete Murphy of the Sheriff's Department, Alice Falkenstein of the Youth and Shelter Program and the Pitkin County Youth Board. Falkenstein feels it is a well run business. She did discuss this with some kids and they said there are drugs there. She felt there could be better supervision, She felt it should be a part of a larger youth activities program that is well staffed. She noted it is one of the only places for children in Aspen. The Pitkin County Youth Board also felt it is one of the only places for kids and felt it needed help instead of closing it down, Vicki Clark, a family planning specialist with the AVVNA, feels the kids should be able to continue to enjoy it. She would like to put family planning posters on the walls. She feels the palace concept should be expanded. Andrean Richmond Parker, a therapist with the Aspen Mental Health Clinic, said she has read of drug use there and feels the kids need a place that is well supervised. Glen Ellis, youth educator with the Catholic Church, feels it is a gathering place for rowdies, drugs and drinking and has negative influence on kids. He feels it has no community purpose. May Brazzleton, school psychologist, thinks it's a good place for younger kids and is not aware of drug use or other serious problems. Glen Alpern, a psychologist, feels it is a horror with drugs and money exchanges, He felt they could move it to the Community Center, Paul Tippido, acting director of the social services, feels the youth need a place to gather and the Pinball Palace is better than a secluded hangout. His observation has been that the behavior is rowdy, nothing bad but obnoxious behavior. He has heard of drug deals and feels it should remain as a gathering place with more supervision unless some better alternative in town develops. Barbara Torbit, an Aspen High School counselor, is glad that the kids have a place to go but feels the management should be more responsible, Kids who skip school are often found there. She does not wish to see it close. Donna Fisher of the Roaring Fork Building said she has had problems with the management of her building which she attributes to the Pinball Palace. Since the opening of the Palace, there has been repeated vandalism in the arcade. She says the Police Department feels the problem is the result of the Pinball Palace and agrees. Some of the problems have been matchbox fires burning the carpet, ink poured over white walls, pictures which were bolted to the walls were stolen and beer bottles -4- Special Meeting Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission July 31, 1979 have been found on the premises. The Planning Office feels the children are as much a part of the citizens of Aspen as adults and downtown is meant for the enjoyment of the citizens. They feel it irresponsible on the part of the adults to ignore the needs of the teenagers in the downtown area. He noted that State law requires that young people may not be refused the right to enter bars. Hedstrom opened the public hearing. Gary Plumley Plumley owns Of Grape and Grain, a liquor store in the neighborhood. He feels it is unfortunate that the City cannot do anything for the children other than this establish- ment. He said kids hang out in the alley and streets and felt this is contrary to what they were trying to achieve with the Mall. He said there is loud music coming from the Palace. He felt it was a good experiment but felt they need an establishment for the kids rather than a hangout. He spoke with some parents that are not happy with the establishment. His main concern is the atmosphere of the downtown area of Aspen. He strongly objected to this conditional use. He had heard the business was for sale. Alan Kupchinski Kupchinski manages a business within 50 feet of the Pinball Palace. He agreed with Plumley's comments, He is strongly opposed to the use because of the rowdy nature of the kids that hang out there. He did not think the use compliments the Victorian flavor of Aspen and the mall, He is harassed by kids asking for change. There is a garbage problem in the mall. He called the operation "juvenile gambling", Bert Bidwell Bidwell owns a business within 250 feet of the Palace, He agreed with the first two gentlemen's comments, He said Marty Hershey spoke at the first hearing and represented he is a third partner in the business. He felt he used his reputation and personality as ex-Chief of Police to sway the P&Z into giving the permit, He did not feel it ever should have been granted. He felt they would have increasing problems with the Palace if it continues. Roy Griffith Griffith owns Aspen Jewelers, He said he has received many complaints from the tenant about the Palace, they use the alley for a bathroom, the kids run around on the roof, he felt there is a lack of supervision. He thinks the kids should have a place to go. He did not think there are adequate restrooms for the kids. He felt they should set an example for the kids. Margaret Albouey Albouey has lived in Aspen for a long time and has had two children grow up here. She has worked for over two years with different committees and task forces talking over alternatives for the kids. She felt that facilities that will be used by kids have to be public and run by a private enterprise. She felt the previous efforts have failed because they have not received the necessary support from the City and community. She felt this is the most urgent need in Aspen and agreed that they have a right to be in public and was concerned they have been denied access to public places. Terese David David felt that children are more impOrtant than adults to her. She did not feel anyone cared anymore about the children and said if we don't care about them, they won't care about us when we get old. She felt they'should help the owner and suggested a coop of parents to help supervise the operation. Hunt felt that Hedstrom noted and they would the kids should have a say at the hearing, that there were kids coming to the hearing be arriving soon. '-' ....", BRADFORD PUBLISHING CO., DENVER -5- RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Aspen Planning and Zoning commission July 31, 1979 Special Meeting Bert Bidwell Howard Fineberg Bert Bidwell John Holmbeck Steve Keinast Anonymous Michelle McEwen Jeff Carl Weiner Jeanine Babcock John Holmbeck Bidwell said he spoke with Fritz Lindner and Uncle Willy who could not attend the meeting. They both expressed a great amount of concern about the Palace and wish that the P&Z will close it or move it away from the center of town. They feel it is a bad influence on the community. Lindner feels the Palace could be a forefront of a numbers place opening in Aspen in the next two years. He compared this with the City of Manitou Springs which has many arcades. Fineberg, owner of the pinball Palace, noted he spoke with Uncle Willy who had a problem eight months ago with a kid driving his car in the alley. He spoke with him yesterday and the day before and Uncle Willy had no objection to the Palace. Fineberg had a petition signed by local businessmen that Uncle Willy did not want to sign but said he would not take any position against the use. Bidwell said he talked with Uncle Willy twenty minutes ago and that was not what Uncle Willy told him. Hedstrom asked that they drop this issue. A group of about 15 kids entered the meeting. Hedstrom asked the people who had spoken in the public hearing to reiterate their complaints for the children. Plumley noted his problems in the alley, noise and music, etc. Hedstrom informed the children that not all the comments were negative but wanted them to know of the complaints on the conduct of the patrons. Kupchinski said he was bothered by kids aSking for change, noise and trash. Hedstrom felt the rest of the comments were similar and asked the applicant to proceed. Ashley Anderson, representing the applicant, asked if the kids could comment on the issue. Holmbeck works at the Palace, He did not feel the pilferage was due only to the Palace. He felt if they close the Palace or move it outside the City, there will be more problems. Keinast felt it was a good place to meet friends and did not think there were all the bad things happening there that people were hearing. He felt Fineberg ran a "tight ship" and noted he kicked them out for spitting and swearing, etc. He felt Fineberg had the operation together and did not think anyone runs out for change. McEwen felt they should move to another location and add a bowling alley and a disco, Jeff liked the Pinball Palace and felt it is a fun place to be. Weiner works at the Palace. He said there are bad kids in any community and did not think closing down the Palace will stop these kids. Babcock said kids like somewhere to "hangout" <lnd if there wasn't a Palace, they would hangout somewhere else and get in trouble. Klar noted that they closed Aspen Mountain because of the problems and formed a club to monitor the mountain. She suggested a similar club might help the kids, Holmbeck said he than it used to. minority. felt the Palace was working much better He also noted that the bad kids are the -6- Special Meeting Margaret Albouey Bert Bidwell Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission July 31, 1979 Albouey agreed with one of the kids' comments that they cannot attribute all the problems downtown to the Palace. These things have always gone on. Bidwell guessed last year when this was granted that they would have juvenile problems. He said he has been in business on that corner for 27 years and has never experi- enced these problems until now. He felt they should move the operation somewhere out of town. Hedstrom closed the public hearing. Ashley Anderson felt they were serving a benefit for the community and the kids. The adults have plenty of places to go. He objected to adults that do not want kids downtown. He did not feel the impacts are that great. He noted a petition signed by property owners in the area. He noted signatures from Werner Kuster and Wendy Morss who signed against the Palace last year. He did not feel the complaints could be directly related to the Palace and its operation. He felt they have lived up to the conditions set up last year. The Chief of Police said there have been complaints but they do not relate them to the Palace in particular. He felt there were very stringent conditions set up that no other business in town has to abide by. He felt they should have to live under the same conditions as other businesses like the noise ordinances, sign ordinances, etc. Pardee asked what the hours of operation are and what type of adult supervision exists, A. Anderson said it is very difficult to get an adult th<lt w<lnts to supervise this type of operation. The owner presently supervises. Fineberg said they had two or three adults in constant supervision. When these adults left, he hired the kids to help supervise and feels the kids respond much more to this type of supervision. They are much more <lware of the problems now and wish to keep the Palace open. Harvey did not feel it fair that the management keep an eye on the kids in the Mall also. W. Anderson did not think the noise is any worse than the Paragon. He also Objected to all the blame of trash, etc. being placed on the P<llace. He suggested three conditions: 1) increase the supervision, 2) put the rules on the wall and 3) install a restroom. Harvey noted the public restrooms are across the mall in Wagner Park. Hunt felt there is a problem with the establishment, He felt it is extending outside the Palace and felt the kids should be warned. Hedstrom felt the kids could learn a sense of responsibility from this. A. Anderson said there are laws for control of nuisances and felt it unfair to place extra conditions on this business. Hunt felt they should be put on notice and if the operation does not follow their wishes they should be closed down. A. Anderson said they could not live with that condition. Fineberg wanted to know on what basis this business should be treated any differently than any other business. The laws protect the property owners in case this operation becomes a nuisance. The original approval gave them a permit SUbject to a review in one year, He said he would not have invested in this operation if he knew he would be tested each year. He could not be gUaranteed that the com- mission would have the same people next year. . He said he has felt like a criminal since the beginning and feels it unfair. It is a clean operation with no problems, McDonnell felt they should give them full support. She felt they are discriminating against kids and they should be made to feel like a part of Aspen. She suggested getting support from the schools. She felt it should come under the same guidelines as any other business. ........ ....., BRADFORD PUBLISHING CO., DENVER #'!'-', '.... -7- RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission July 31, 1979 Special Meeting Herndon Subdivision, Preliminary Plat, Public Hearing Tipple Lodge Subdivision Exemption Don Helmick Anderson moved to approve the extension of the conditional use of the Pinball Palace with no further conditions, Harvey seconded. All in favor with the exception of Hunt, motion approved. Grice introduced the item. The property is located at the west end of Francis Street. There is in excess of 12,000 square feet of level land. The parcel being created will have at least 6,000 square feet of developable land. The subdivision is in accordance with the GMP exemption, The Aspen.Water Department has commented that they willallQw only one connection of water service to the existing 14" steel main. Aspen Metro Sanitation has no problem, Rocky Mountain Natural Gas has no problem. Mountain Bell has requested that a condition of approval be that all streets and driveways be dedicated to the use of public utilities. The Fire Marshal stated that, while the access does not comply fully with the AMC, it should be adequate in case of emergency. The Engineering Department has requested clari- fication regarding several easements and boundaries. The Planning Office recommends approval subject to the comments listed in the Planning Office memorandum of July 25, 1979, Hedstrom opened the public hearing, There were no COmments. Hedstrom closed the public hearing, Gideon Kaufman, representing the applicant, said that the City Engineer was concerned about a possible adverse possession claim. Kaufman asked that P&Z not condition the approval upon the resolution of the boundary question, Hunt moved to approve the Herndon Subdivision Preliminary Plat and included in the motion are the comments of the Water Department, City Engineering, if any, further that any development of the parcel be prior to settling the dispute of property will be on the basis that setbacks will be from the fence as opposed to the property line we saw and excluding item 6&7 of the City Engineer's comments, McDonnell seconded. All in favor, motion approved. Grice introduced the application. The proposal is to condominiumize the Tipple Lodge,. a ten bedroom/bath and two studio unit complex. The Engineering Department has no problem with the application. The Planning Office and City Attorney have had discussions regarding whether or not condominiumization of a lodge unit turns these units into dwelling units, a lodge unit intended for short term and a dwelling unit intended for long term occupancy. Comments were solicited from the Aspen Skiing Corporation, Aspen Square Condominiums, the Stonebridge Inn, the Condominium Managers' Association. The Managers' Association was in favor of the exemption provided they can be guaranteed it will remain in the short term market. The City Attorney concluded there is no realistic legal mechanism to maintain these units in the short term market, The GMP does not allow for the construction of any additional short term units in Aspen outside the Lodge zone. The Stonebridge Inn said out of 94 units, 3 units have been taken out of the short term market. Grice said if any of the units are taken out of that market, they must recommend against condominiumi- zation. Hedstrom opened the public hearing. Helmick, representing Aspen Square Condominium Association, noted that he did not indicate a pro or con position in his meetings with Grice. He felt tourist accommodations in Aspen are an endangered species. He defined a "tourist" as one who comes to Aspen on vacation, does not own real estate or pay taxes. He felt they must establish a policy on -8- Special Meeting July 31, 1979 Andy Hecht Alternate Members to P&Z Commission '- Aspen Planning and Zoning Commission condominiumization of lodges because of the potential of removing these units from the market. If they decide they wish to allow these condominiumizations, they must decide where they wish these units to move. He suggested requiring the purchaser to rent his unit a certain amount of time per year. He noted the Stonebridge Inn in Snowmass condomini- umized, the units went from $20,000 to $90,000 and people lived in the units year round without kitchens. Hecht, representing Ralph Melville, asked the P&Z to con- sider what flexibility they want to give lodges to upgrade their structures. He also warned against removing these units from the tourist market. Hedstrom closed the public hearing. JD Muller, representing the applicant, agreed that they should establish a policy on these condominiumizations. There is no present ordinance covering this application. They are not adding kitchens. Stock noted there have been many requests for information on the condominiumization of lodges. The difference between this application and the other requests is this application does not include construction of kitchens. This applicant also claims there is no change in use and therefore does not need GMP approval. They have talked about a change in the code which Stock supports. He recommended a change in the nonconforming status of a lodge in the O-Office and R-6 districts. Muller offered to assist in arriving at the necessary policy but noted they would be exempt anyway. Stock noted that if p&Z and Council deny this application and the legislation is passed on the policy, they can then come in for full subdivision approval. Hunt recalled a similar application years ago where they conditioned approval upon an on-site managing office. Stock said they can enforce the on-site management but cannot enforce short terming. Hedstrom asked if the Tipple Lodge presently has a lodge office. Muller said yes, they have separate phones with their own numbers in each unit. Hedstrom asked if they consider this application unique and separate from the necessary policy. He noted they are not in favor of the general condominiumization of lodges and questioned if they could act contrary to that attitude. Grice again noted they cannot find a vehicle to insure these will stay in the short term market. Pardee felt it is up to the applicant to attempt to draft language that will satisfy the P&Z and the City Attorney. Hunt moved to postpone action and continue the Tipple Lodge Subdivision to the next regular P&Z meeting, McDonnell seconded. All in favor, motion approved, Harvey moved that the p&Z recommend to Council the denial of the possible appointment of two alternates to the P&Z as there is no real need, McDonnell seconded. All in favor, motion approved. Klar moved to adjourn the meeting, Pardee seconded. All in favor, motion approved. Meeting adjourned at 8:00 PM. '-41t/~A--Y1ruJ Shery ~mmen, Deputy City Clerk ...,./