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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM \~ C. F. 1l0ECKEL 6. B. 81 l. co.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
Chairman Gillis called the meeting to order at 5:15 p.m. with members Chuck
Vidal, Bryan Johnson, Jack Jenkins, Spence Schiffer and Janet Landry. Also
present City/County Planner Herb Bartel and Assistant Planners Donna Baer and
John Stanford.
MINUTES
1/8/74, 1/10/74,
1/15/74, 1/17/74,
and 1/22/74
Schiffer made a motion to make an addition to the min-
utes of January 15, 1974 (pp. 10, para. 4):"... not
that we should base our decision entirely but that
they are relevant." Motion seconded by Johnson. All
in favor, motion carried.
Johnson made a motion to approve the minutes of 1/8/74,
1/10/74, 1/15/74 as corrected, 1/17/74 and 1/22/74.
Motion seconded by Schiffer. All in favor, motion
carried.
Geri Vagneur arrived.
OLD BUSINESS
Stevens - Ginn
Building
Larry Yaw, architect, was present representing the pro-
ject. Submitted a model of the proposed building.
,
Yaw stated that the project had been approved at the
conceptual stage and they had completed the prelimi-
nary review with the subcommittee. Stated that the
subcommittee had recommended approval, expressing a
concern with the trash removal.
Yaw gave a brief review of the project to this point.
Stated that this project involved two owners working
together. Stated that the Planning Office had en-
couraged this approach for the following reasons:
(1) Can deal better with architectural continuity;
(2) Can combine open space; (3) Can exercise control
over architecture and the needs of the area.
Yaw submitted an overview and pointed out the location
of the project. Stated that the shops relate in func-
tion to City Market. Stated that it was located con-
tiguous to both the mixed residential area and the rec-
reations accommodations.
Yaw stated that by using open space in this manner and
by creating a link between user and need, feel they
can make the open space a pedestrian experience.
Further stated that in the preliminary review with the
subcommittee, itwas requested that the applicant give
a listing of uses. Submitted a list of uses to the
Commission. Stated that the architecture of the pro-
ject would be in wood and heavy timber and stone with
a relationship between the roof form and the roof mat-
erial with City Market with the idea of bringing things
a little closer together.
Yaw stated that in addition to the preliminary presen-
tation, the applicant is requesting that the Commission
back the applicant on three variances which they will
go to the respective boards for. Stated that the con-
cept behind asking the Commission's backing on those
variances is one of dealing with the projects in their
entirety rather than as two individual entities.
Yaw stated that one of the variances which they would
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM" C.F.HOECKEL6.B.&L.Co.
Regular
Meeting
Aspen Planning & zoning
February 19, 1974
like to ask the commission to back them on is that of
the open space itself. Stated that open space is re-
quired to have a certain frontage on the street. Feel
that the relationship between City Market and this as
a shopping environment for service needs precludes an
important aspect of the strict definition of the open
space. Stated that by combining the open space, the
applicant has considerably more and considerably more
useable open space than is available to an individual
project.
Yaw stated that the actual open-to-the-sky space is
less than the 25% required. It is 22%, however, com-
bining the pedestrian space, have over 40% open space.
Felt that the intent of open space is for the func-
tional use and enjoyment of people. Feel is is a very
acceptable notion.
Yaw stated that the other variance the applicant would
like the Commission to back is one of projections.
Stated that there are some beam endings and some roofs
that project into one another's property lines. Feel
these make the pedestrian experience a little more ex-
citing and have an encroachment agreement. Submitted
a copy of the agreement to the Commission.
Yaw stated that the uses in the building are in general
the lower level of one building is commercial, the
upper level is combined commercial and office and the
other level is office. The uses in the other building
include commercial on the lower level, office on the
second level and residential on the third level. Re-
minded the Commission that at the conceptual presen-
tation it was required of the owner that eight units
cannot be condominiumized and have full year leases.
Johnson stated that he was withdrawing from consider-
ation of this project due to conflict of interest.
Yaw submitted photographs of the proposed project, and
indicated where the property lines were.
Gillis questioned the applicant on how the trash re-
moval problem had been handled.
Yaw stated that the trash removal has not been hand-
led. Stated that there are two basic ways to handle
the problem. Stated that the preferred way was to
handle it in the lower level. Stated that the mall
would be totally heated. Stated that because of the
project's relationship to City and market and the fact
that the project is addressing itself to City Market
and beyond, that the owners have requested that they
have no alley elevation.
Vagneur questioned if there was underground parking.
Yaw stated that there was, with space for 31 or 32,
depending on where one column goes. Described the
circulation system of the project.
Schiffer questioned the letter containing uses. Felt
it would be better to state the excluded uses.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM 10 C.F.HOECKELB.B.aL.<;;Q.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
Yaw stated that the uses would
which limits them. Stated that
quired by the Planning Office.
commit space until approval.
conform to the zoning
that listing was re-
Stated they could not
Vidal questioned if in the conceptual presentation,
the possible third building accommodated its own open
space.
Yaw stated that it did. Stated that there was no op-
portunity for trade-off.
Vidal questioned the applicant on how he would feel
about taking one of the buildings back a short dis-
tance to provide more of an open space to the sky.
The applicant stated that the model was incorrect.
Stated that the drawings reflect about a four foot
greater distance between the buildings. Stated that
the drawings reflect about 8 foot distance at that
point. Pointed out that from the pedestrian level
that space was quite open.
Vidal expressed concern about the vertical element.
Felt that it appears to be a.very sunless area.
Yaw stated that they had checked the sun angles and the
sun does shine in the mall area.
Yaw stated that a second variance which they would ask
that the trade-off between open spaces.
Vidal stated that he agreed with what the applicant
was trying to accomplish, but felt that maybe they
had not accomplished it in the one bottleneck.
Yaw stated that there would be some alterations in the
roof form.
Schiffer stated that he would like some more time to
see the project since this was the first presentation
on the project he had seen.
Jenkins questioned how many people this particular pro-
ject would generate.
Yaw stated that they presumed it would be 30 - 35
people. Stated that it could possibly vary to 45 since
they are not sure what uses will be used in the build-
ing.
Jenkins stated that he felt parking should not be pro-
vided in this location. Further felt that he was not
sure that people should be living in the core area.
Schiffer stated that he was not in favor of recommend-
ing underground parking for every new building, but
felt that in this particular building, felt it was a
good idea since it is in an area, where, if it is not
provided, people will park on the streets and the City
Market parking lot. Felt this is one of the areas
where parking should be provided at this point.
Ms. Landry stated that she felt this building was to
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM 10 C.F.HOECKELB.B.6l.CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
people and businesses that need a pick up access rather
than offices or businesses that do not require any
parking.
Chairman Gillis stated that was the only problem he had
with the project. Felt he would like to approve the
project conditioned upon the uses, allowing the Com-
mission more time to study the uses.
Jenkins stated he felt the project had too much land
coverage. Appeared to cover the land from lot line to
lot line.
Yaw stated that if the applicant had followed the true
course of the prescribed law regarding this building,
there would be absolutely no open space on the back of
the building. Felt that in regard to the needs gene-
rated by the neighborhood and addressing itself to
a relationship with City Market, the applicant had
done quite well.
Vidal questioned the applicant on how they could ac-
commodate the full 25% open space in the interior area.
Yaw stated that it would create some architectural pro-
blems. Stated that they would have to remove one full
employee housing unit. Would penalize the owners in
terms of the space they would have to rent. Would
start getting down to facades that became straight
down to the ground type of things.
Vidal stated that he was impressed with what the ap-
plicant had done and how they had applied their open
space, but bothered by the narrowness in the one par-
ticular spot.
Jenkins stated that he felt if every five lot area in
downtown Aspen were developed to this extent, would be
too much.
Yaw stated that he felt it was not right to encourage
the two-owner development for the neighborhood shop-
ping concept and then to say that they must park in
the Trueman Property, which is twenty minutes away.
Yaw pointed out that City Market brings in people from
a much greater distance than three or four minutes aw-
way, making it more than a neighborhood shopping cen-
ter.
Chairman Gillis again pointed out that the Planning Of-
fice had recommended no parking for this project.
Vagneur stated that she felt the project required par-
king, due to the fact that cars would encroach on the
City Market lot and problems with parking on the
street.
Vidal stated that he felt the Commission would like to
think more about the variances. Would want to study
before making recommendations to the Board of Zoning
Adjustment.
Chairman Gillis requested the applicant to come back
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM 10 C. F. HOECKEL B. B.& L. CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen planning & zoning
February 19, 1974
on Thursday for a work session with the Commission.
Schiffer made a motion to approve the preliminary re-
view of this project, subject to further review of
the uses and exemptions. Motion seconded by vagneur.
All in favor, with the exception of Jenkins who was
opposed. Motion carried.
CDES Building
Robin Molny was present to represent the developers.
Pointed out that the project was located at the cor-
ner of Hyman and Original Streets. Submitted plans
of the proposed building to the Commission.
Molny stated that he had gotten conceptual approval on
behalf of the owners Nick Coates, James Daggs, Dale
Eubanks and Dwight Shellman. Stated that they had ap-
peared before the subcommittee. Submitted the pre-
liminary plans and elevations. Also submitted a model
of the project.
Molny pointed out that the basement plans included a
stair tower, mechanical and storage, and two handball
courts (proposing that they limit membership to 30
members). Also a limited amount of rental space, which
would be offices with skylights. Stated that there
would be 4400 square feet below grade, which does not
count for floor area ratio.
Molny further pointed out that the floor area ration
allowable would be 18,000 square feet. Stated that
the building would be somewhere between 13,500 square
feet and 14,500 square feet above ground.
Further stated that due to the area of the client's
program, need the lesser square footages on the first
and second floor, with the most being on the third
floor, which gives the opportunity to provide a great
deal of arcade space at street level. Stated that
each of the owners if providing for himself space for
expansion in the future.
Molny stated that the arcade space would be 2400 square
feet at street level.
Stated that the second floor would be identical to the
first.
Stated that the third floor would be completely cov-
ered with a building 64 feet square which would be the
Daggs - Eubanks space. Stated that the applicant would
almost undoubtedly treat the roof line differently in
the end than the model shows. Stated that Ordinance
#19 makes specific reference to encouraging arcades.
Molny stated that the open space required is 2,125
square feet, and stated that the building is, in its
perimeter is 6,400 square feet, leaving 2600 square
feet of open space, in addition to the arcade.
Molny stated that the owners had some reservations a-
bout the arcade, due to winter conditions of snow and
ice which get trapped into the arcade. Stated that
they had come up with the idea of putting a glass skirt
from a certain point down, which would be open from
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORM 10 C. F. HOECKrL B. B.& l. CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
the bottom edge down in the summertime and closed in
the winter. Stated that the following idea, which he
is proposing at this meeting, is to glass from the
bottom half way up. Stated that this glass screen
would be permanent. Stated that by definition, this
would not be an arcade. Felt that if it was glassed
in, the owners would feel obligated to rent that space
to uses which are compatible with a professional office
building. Stated the reason they would do that would
be to justify the cost of doing the installation and
heating in the winter.
Vidal questioned what that proposal would do to their
Floor area ratio.
Molny stated it would still be under the necessary
square footage. Stated that if approval was granted,
the applicant would like to have the option of renting
the arcade space. Stated that total space, including
the basement would be 20,700 square feet or at the
most, 22,500 square feet, not including the enclosed
arcade.
Vidal questioned how many square feet would be below
grade and not included in the Floor Area Ratio.
Molny stated that that would be 7,200 square feet.
Ms. Baer stated that the Planning Office would not sup-
port a cabaret in the lower level of the building.
Further stated that all of the referral letters had
come in.
Chairman Gillis stated that at this location, would
favor no parking.
Molny stated that that was the position of the appli-
cant. Further stated that the owners would like to
purchase parking and would like the support of the
Commission in the application to the Board of Adjust-
ment. Stated that the owners are willing to provide
12 bedrooms off site.
Molny stated that he felt the answer to the parking
situation was the alley.
Jenkins stated that he felt it was very inconsistent
to consider something which is one block away from the
City Market as not requiring parking and a project
which is half a block away as being a completely dif-
ferent thing.
Vidal stated that he agreed with Jenkins, partially
because this building is further removed from the core.
Feel that parking would be appropriate in this location.
Molny stated that he felt the automobile was respon-
sible for making Aspen a dirty community, and felt that
it would be better not to provide parking and let the
problem increase.
Molny pointed out that the owners are willing to cove-
nant the uses of the arcaed space.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & zoning
February 19, 1974
FORM" C.F.HOECKELB.B.&L.CD.
SET PUBLIC HEARING
FOR TRAIL SYSTEM
PLAN AMENDMENT
PUBLIC HEARING
Zoning Code Amendment
8040 Greenline
Molny stated that the applicant would make a proposal
to the Commission about the uses which would be ex-
cluded or included in the arcade space.
Vidal questioned if the applicant was requesting ap-
proval of an enclosed arcade at this point.
Molny stated that that is what the applicant wished.
Eubanks stated that if they were required to provide
on site parking, would not be for employees, but for
clients.
Schiffer made a motion to approve this project at the
preliminary review stage subject working out the re-
view and covenant of the enclosed arcade uses and
that there be no on site parking and that the appli-
cant provide 12 bedrooms of employee housing. Motion
seconded by Johnson. All in favor, with the exception
of Jenkins who abstained. Motion carried.
Schiffer stated that the reason he made the motion is
that it appears to him that the applicant has satis-
fied all of the pertinent criteria under Ordinance #19.
Landry stated that the reason she voted for the pro-
posal was for the same reasons.
Vagneur, too, stated that those were the reasons she
had voted in favor of the motion.
Bartel requested the Commission set a public hearing to
consider an amendment to the Trail Plan. Stated that
the first date available in which the Commission could
meet the publication requirement would be March 19,
1974.
Johnson made a motion to set the public hearing on
the trail system plan amendment for March 19, 1974,
at 5:00 p.m. Motion seconded by Vagneur. All in
favor, motion carried.
Chairman Gillis opened the public hearing for the zon-
ing code amendment - 8040 Greenline.
Stanford submitted a map showing the surveyed lines.
Bartel stated that at the time the Commission made its
recommendations to Council on the downzoning of Aspen
Mountain, one of the things was included, also a re-
quest of the Planning Office, was that there be a
building permit review procedure along the line.
Bartel stated that the 8040 line does not fit each par-
ticular ownership as carefully as it might. It cannot
take into consideration variations in slope, geology,
avalanche, access, etc...
Bartel stated that what they have proposed is that, as
part of the downzoning of Aspen Mountain, that there
be a building permit review along the 8040 line. Stated
that the matters which would be considered as part of
the review are outlined in the ordinance, and this is
a follow-up to the Commission's initial recommendation
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
fOR"''' C.F.HOECKEL6.B.&L.CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
on the downzoning of Aspen Mountain. Stated that the
downzoning has been acted on on second reading by the
Ci ty Council.
Dunaway questioned how far on either side of the 8040
line would this review be in effect.
Bartel explained that it would be everything above the
8040 line and everything 50 yards below.
Bob George questioned the Commission on whether any
study had been done as to what the affect of the 50
yards on the downhill side of the 8040 line is in
true feet down the hill.
Bartel explained that that was taken into considera-
tion generally with the placement of the line in that
it was so in order that there could be some develop-
ment occuring below the line without damage as far as
access, water pressure, etc.. are concerned. Stated
that the problem with the line is that there are some
spots above it that are more buildable than the spots
below the line. Stated that the review procedure is
to allow for better placement of the buildings along
the line.
Bartel pointed out that it was when the base of the
building was within 50 yards of the 8040 line that the
building came under review.
Chairman Gillis questioned if the Commission would ad-
dress itself in the review to revegetation.
Bartel explained that that would be contained in the
review. Further explained that one of the standards
is water shed protection.
Johnson made a motion to approve the amendment to
the zoning code concerning the 8040 Greenline and re-
commend approval to Council. Motion seconded by
Landry. All in favor, motion carried.
PARKS & RECREATION
MASTER PLAN -
GOLF COURSE
Ted Armstrong, head of the Parks,' & Recreation Depart-
ment, was present to give the presentation.
Chairman Gillis closed the public hearing on the zoning
code amendment - 8040 Greenline.
Armstrong gave a brief history of the project. Stated
that two years ago he presented to Council this area,
and they appropriated $4,000 for a comprehensive study
of area I (Golf Course Area).
Armstrong stated that this proposal was for the devel-
opment of area I. Stated that the purpose of develop-
ment of area I will provide a recreational complex for
the City of Aspen, County of Pitkin.
Stated that the development of area I not only will '
provide numerous recreational facilities but open
space for leisure use and insure a greenbelt area north
of Highway 82 between Castle and Maroon. Stated that
the reasons for this were: (1) To provide the citizens
of Aspen with additional recreational facilities, which
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORN" C.F.tJOECKELB.B.!lL.CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
are currently lacking; (2) To provide the City of
Aspen a source of revenue that can be used with cur-
rent maintenance cost as well as development cost of
additional park and recreation facilities (Example:
the City of Vail Golf Course in 1972 took in $126,000
in green fees and $60,000 gross revenue off of golf
carts - does not take into consideration revenues de-
rived off of driving range, bar facilities, etc.);
(3) To insure the residents of area I that the fire
hazards of non-irrigated land will be properly main-
tained; (4) To have a plan in which the City can, from
year to year, budget major improvements. Stated that
this would eliminate the unnecessary spending of City
funds for its projects, which are currently changing
from year to year.
Armstrong stated that the City has inadequate facili-
ties in the way of baseball, softball, rugby fields,
etc... Stated that the development of area I would
also provide playfields for ever increasing demands
by the City recreational programs, rugby club, etc...
Stated that this would also provide a basis on which
the City can continue its Master Trail Plan. Stated
that it would also provide playgrounds for residents
of Area I, which are currently non-existent. Pointed
out that there are 578 people in that area.
Armstrong stated that this plan will take into consid-
eration the ultimate development of Area I.
Armstrong submitted map and overlay of proposed plan
for the Golf Course Area. The plan would include the
enlargement of the current golf course from 9 to 18
holes. Stated the cost would be approximately
$280,000, but stated he felt that it could be done for
considerably less.
Armstrong stated that the plan had been designed and
approved by Robert Wolf, current PGA pro and currently
the golf pro at Vail. Stated that his associate is
Johnny Bensel from Glenwood Springs. Armstrong sub-
mitted four letters of reference concerning this deve-
lopment.
Armstrong pointed out on the maps the areas that can
be developed according to community demands. Stated
that they are proposing the addition of 12 tennis
courts, a maintenance building, rugby field, softball
facilities and passive park areas. Stated that they
would utilize the water rights and take away the fire
hazard.
Armstrong stated that he had 342 signed petitions to
leave the area as an open space and to put it into a
golf course. Also has a survey done by the League of
Women Voters showing that 80% of the people are in
favor of this. Also showed letters from organizations
and interested people indicating approval to develope
18 holes of golf.
Vidal questioned how many of the existing holes would
be moved to accommodate this plan.
Armstrong stated that there would be three holes moved.
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FORIII ~I C. F. H DECKEL B. B. & L. CD.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
Schiffer questioned how long it would take to get the
golf course in shape.
Armstrong stated that would depend on how much funding
was available. Pointed out that there would be people
who would donate labor and trees.
Schiffer stated that he felt a really good golf course
would be valuable. Expressed concern that this might
not be a really good golf course. Felt that $280,000
does not appear to be much money.
Armstrong stated that he thought, after discussing the
matter with City Manager Mahoney, that they would start
breaking ground in the spring.
Schiffer stated he would like to see it laid out so
there would be more options.
Armstrong pointed out that the driving range would be
300 yards.
Gillis stated that he felt there were higher priorities
in the community without recommending that the City
Council spend a lot of money on this project.
Armstrong stated that he was not asking for funding
right away. Stated that if the plan was adopted,
could start without any money.
Gillis stated that he felt the donated labor could do
better things for the community.
Vidal made a motion to approve the plan in concept,
but to recommend holding back approval on money to be
spent. Motion seconded Johnson. All in favor, motion
carried.
Geri Vagneur expressed reservations on the priority of
this project.
UTE AVENUE REZONING
Chairman Gillis stated that no new evidence could be
put into this discussion since the public hearing has
already been held.
Vagneur stated that she felt the public in general,
the concerned citizens, the Councilmembers, have no
idea what sort of soul-searching a decision which
might be made at this meeting involved. Stated that
a great deal of time and effort had been involved in
drawing a conclusion from the discussions. Stated
that the members have concerned themselves with the
fairness to everybody, the possible position they
might be putting ~he City in, the position they might
be putting the public in. Stated it was difficult
to come up with a decision, and feel that a former
Commission may have put this Commission in a position
of making a decision here tonight which might affect
one project mostly. Felt that the new members feel
very strongly that they have been put in a terrible
position.
Schiffer stated that he was a very strong advocate of
extremely limited growth for Aspen. Stated he liked
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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
100 Leaves
FOR'" 10 C.F.HOECKELB.B.&L.CO.
Regular Meeting
Aspen Planning & Zoning
February 19, 1974
the recommendation for the rezoning of Ute Avenue, per
se. Stated that he was not prepared to say that that
is the solution without taking a look at what the re-
zoning is going to be for the entire City. Would like
to see the entire mixed residential area zoned the
way the proposed rezoning is for that particular area.
Stated that he did not believe in zoning on a neigh-
borhood by neighborhood basis. Stated he felt this
would be the first step in that direction. Feel that
what the Commission must do is go ahead and complete
the studies on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis
and when they have taken a look at the entire City
from a rezoning point of view then put together a
comprehensive rezoning ordinance, have hearings on it,
etd... Would recommend and would like to see the Com-
mission do would be to take the proposed rezoning for
the Ute Avenue area and instead of recommending to the
City Council that we adopt that as permanent rezoning,
take that and recommend that they amend the 1973 Land
Use Plan in conjunction with Ordinance #19 specifically
for that Ute Avenue area, so as to implement those
specific recommendations under Ordinance #19 rather
than under the heading of permanent rezoning. Feel
that the Commission has enough information to do that
wow and would suggest that the City Council do that
through the emergency provisions of the Municipal Code.
Schiffer stated that he would like to emphasize that
he does like the rezoning proposal conceptually, but
do not feel that it can be done on a neighborhood by
neighborhood basis. Suggest that once this is taken
care of, the City amend the Land Use Plan for the en-
tire mixed residential area under Ordinance #19 when
there is sufficient information to do that.
Vagneur made a motion that: (1) the permanent re-
zoning not be adopted; (2) that the Planning Office
draft a resolution that the Ordinance #19 Land Use
Map be amended so as to incorporate specific recom-
mendations of the Planning Department; (3) that the
amendments be done under emergency provisions of the
Municipal Code. Motion seconded by Schiffer.
Roll call vote - Gillis, aye; Vidal, abstain; Johnson,
aye; Jenkins, aye; Schiffer, aye; Vagneur, aye;
Landry, abstain. Motion carried.
Gillis stated that the meeting would be continued at
5:00 p.m. on Thursday, February 21st.
Meeting adjourned at 7:45 p.m.