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HomeMy WebLinkAboutminutes.apz.19691209 RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves fORM" c.r,HOECKELB.B.l!.l.CO. Regular Meeting Aspen Planning & Zoning December ~l, 1969 Meeting was called to order by Chairman Michael Garrish with Robin Molny, Mayor Robert Barnard, Francis Whitaker at 5:15 p.m. Molny moved to approve the minutes of the last meeting as mailed by the Secretary. Seconded by Barnard. Barnard aye; Garrish aye; Molny aye; Whitaker nay. Motion carried. Regional Sewer Recommendation Administer Wurl - At the last meeting, Mr. Roberts of Parker and Associates was here to answer questions on behalf of the City or questions that the P & Z might have in relation to the Parker study that has been done on the valley wide sewer proposal. I thought someone other than the engineer who prepared the plan shuuld outline for the P & Z how the City's interest in the matter came about and the reason it was submitted to the P & Z for consideration as an amendment to the Master Plan. The Statutes outline the responsibility of the P & Z as relates to the preparation of the plan and how it should be amended, adopted and so on. One of the things it says is that careful and thorough study and review should be made of all utilities affecting not only the City but the area around it so that from this we can determine what is in our best interest as relates to the future growth of the utilities. I don't know that you understand what your responsibility is under the law, but you should review this as it relates to the City and submit it to the proper legislative or governing body, whoever has jurisdic- tion. If outside the City, your recommendations would go to the County. As I say you are responsible to plan for the protection of the assets we have inside our jurisdiction as well as on a regional basis. Every geographical ar area in the Stateof Colorado, I think, places a different value on its environment. I suppose if you live in Limon you might be less concerned about esthetics than if you lived in Aspen. As to establishing standards and goals in the development of this valley, I think careful consideration has to be given to reviewing not only the mistakes we have made but the mistakes that others have made and also we should consider the advanced and progressive programs and approaches that are being used in other areas to cope with not only this problem but all our problems. For example I would like to outline and because I know a lot more about water than sewage, I'll deal with some of the mistakes we have made in the water program. There has developed over the years several little water districts or com- panies, whatever you want to call them, but they formed around either the development of a subdivision for the most part or the establishment of a trail' er court or some such deal. For example since we have made the improvements or began improving the water system in 1960, we have taken over seven exist- ing, little water companies: Snowbunny, Lower and Upper Red Mountain, Mountain Valley, Aspen Grove, Riverside and so on; plus a lot of individual wells. In the area that we propose to serve with our water program at this moment there are 14 different water service areas, districts, companies or whatever you :want to call them. In addition I don't know how many indiv- idual wells and so forth. This is one of the mistakes that we made in not, I think, being progressive, thinking earlier and enough in the early stages of the water development program. A lot of this came about because the City did not own the system and the system was broken down. There were a lot of problems. The point of the whole thing is we should have started thinking bigger earlier. The same thing applies to some sanitation pro- blems that have shown up inside this area. The old Aspen Sanitation District was formed to solve a crisis, and I am sure when they sat down at the meeting - 1 - _...."........------._.~.......,-.,.,,~..,.., .~ RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM" C.F.HOECKHB.B.&l.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. and if you review the minutes all the reports they had, would have all the same things to say that almost every feasibility study does. They located the plant at a spot they thought they could afford and probably that was the limitation. In looking back on it, you can see the problems associated with this. It was brought to light in a couple of reports done, one by the State Health Department. Its easy with hindsight to see about, anybody who comes to town could, of course, take a walk down by the hospital bridge and say you have located your sewer plant in the wrong place. But they pointed that out, asdid McLaughlin when he worked for Hoper and Associates he did a study in 1964. It isn't limited to this area, as a matter of fact, we could benefit a lot more by going to other Metropolitan areas and I classify this as a metropolitan area because that is really what we are dealing with, as our problems parallel more often those of a metropolitan area like Denver than anyother city in the state. Denver is a good example. In 1947 you could fish in Clear Creek; by 1955 you could hardly get the water to run. But they had just ac cumulated over that period of time over 30 separate sanitation districts between Golden and the confluence of Clear Creek and the Platte River. In order to solve the problem, they formed a metropolitan district much the same as we have done here. In those early discussions, I remember they started talking about locating the plant somewhere between Brighton and Greeley, that is about 40 miles from Denver. Then a lot of discussions came about that they couldn't afford to do it, in the long run there wasn't enough development and all of those things we have been listening to. So theykept backing up, wellthey backed up to Brighton,but Brighton won't stand for the plant being next to them. Then they backed down to an area between Denver and Brighton about half way which is farm country. Then there were other problems more in light of the cost of the ground down there. To make a long story short, they finally backed up into Commerce City, whichis an industrial area and they thought they wouldn't have the problems of other locations and it would be economic- ally feasible to locate the plant here and they did. Of course, you have read the papers about the problems they have had with the metro plant, most of which I think, have been engineering problems butthe point of the whole thing that you're going to have problems with any kind of a plant you build and had that plant been constructed downstream it would have been more properly located along the confluence of Clear Creek and the South Platte River. First thing they did was to locate upstream from Clear Creek which formed them, in order to get gravity flow from those plants on Clear Creek, to get that into the metro plant they were making cuts 40 to 60' feet deep. In addition to that, there is now existing a lot of dev- elopment downstream north to Thorton and those areas. So I think here is a mistake we could look to. I was going to point out that if that plant had been located downstream, the thing that generated all the heat and all the problems that they have been having from a political viewpoint is the plant's location. They're pouring sludge out of that plant, trying to dry it, trying to haul it, trying to do all these things and they're doing it right in the middle of where a lot of people live and thats just bound to give you trouble. Another example closer to us is Basalt. In the design or the engineering of their plant, you can see for yourself where they have located it, just far enough downstream on the other side of the bank or the bank on the opposite side of the river so as not to affect the town as it is now, but they are near the middle of the Emma area. Thats going to develope. You can see it's being subdivided now, and was when they planned the thing. Anyway back to the things that people seem to ask at this stage be done, things which I would like you to think about. - 2 - - , ~ RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM \~ C. r. HOECK EL B. B. & l. CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. It was hoped that the present sanitation districts would carefully consider their approach on an area wide basis. For example, I'll go back to the time when Snowmass was started. We had discussions at thattime with McLaughlin trying to persuade him and the people drumming up the project to consider coming downstream because you can see there are three basic large landowners in the Brush Creek valley. There's Elay, Drostie and one other whom I can't name. We were thinking of not only that valley but our own. For all the reasons they give you now, they didn't go along with that. They set up the plant and it functions and will until such time as the demands are greater than they have been able to keep up with. It happens in every single plant. If you could find other than a brand new facility that is over 3 or 5 years old and has stayed up with the demands, I'd be surprised in this state or anyother. They just somehow have a record of not doing it. After the Snowmass deal, of course, Metro was in its beginning. We began having discussions with them then to consider going nrther down the valley. For one reason they were having big problems with land acquisition, but our side of the thing was concern for the esthetics and the things in this valley that we are all here for, the rivers etc. Again for these reasons, they refused to do that. This is when it became obvious that someone else wou ~d have to initiate the area wide study. So the Commissioners and Council, it was the RSA people who started it, and it was studied. In addition to those things that I spoke about that gpt the thinking started that relates to the study, they were motivated by problems that they could see. Developments down the valley that now need sewer; not things that are in the future, Gerbazdale, Woody Creek and Elay. Elay had a plan at that time, still has, a plan to put in a sewer plant to be located alongside Highway 82 where the Brush Creek dumps under the highway and goes into the RoaringFork. On the west side of the highway where they propose to have their plant. There were discussions at that time about possible other areas that we're going to develop. These were some of the things that motivated the study. In.addition to all this, they had available to them and I now make available to you, some studies made by commissions formed by the Federal Government to study these things all the problems associated with water and sewage. Mainly this dealt with big metropolitan cities and their problems. Again I want to remind you that this is the situation we are in. There are some statements as you go through there and I would like to refer to some of these, to point out they're feelings. On page 17 it says for example, "Also absent in most areas have been far sighted and comprehensive plans to insure public funds will be used for facilities both economically and conducive to a sound pattern of development. Lacking too in many metropolitan areas have been viable operating units. As a City Engineer of Detroit recently noted: The water supply and the sewage treatment problems could be solved almost overnight if, (1) someone else paid the bill, (2) social patterns were not disturbed, and (3) political boundaries were not violated." It isn't the engineering techniques that are lacking, its those things. The remainder of this chapter deals with four major issues: inadequate investment, fragmentation and its consequences, suburban problems, and central city- suburban relationships. They comment that inadequate investment is even more critical than sewage treatment facilities. Recent investments by various study groups and agencies give a graphic picture of the sewage treatment investment lag. As you can read, it tells the number of people and over 90 percent of the deficiencies reported are in communities of less than 10,000 people. It points out that it is pretty easy to get a water plant because we drink the water but they don't really treat the sewage as carefully because thats downstream from them. Something I want to talk about a little bit is the comment regarding the general tendency - 3 - -, RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM" C.r.tlOECKELB.B.&L.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. to create additional water and sewage districts rather than expand the area of existing districts. Mayor Barnard - Don't you suppose, Leon, that that's partly due to the fact that sometimes these areas are not contiguous at the moment, but rather sitting out in little islands. Administrator Wurl - Yes, that has something to do with it. Mayor Barnard - That is why the Highlands developed the way it did, simply because it wasn't contiguous to anyother water-sewer situation. Administrator Wurl - They go on to illustrate which isn't the case in Metro and ASD. You see, they have done the same thing on what they call a sub-metro or sub-regional basis. What they would like to over-come is just exactly what happened as relates to Aspen Sanitation. Actually the proper thing or the best thing in the interest of the whole valley is if Aspen Sanitation District had expaned into that area and kept annexing like the City until you have one en tity thats doing the sanitation. I am not promoting that for the City, we've got all the problems we can handle right now. I am just saying that if you had one sewer, one sewer board to deal with, one entity, it would be a lot easier for us and for the people. Thats what they are telling you to do. They made a study in the met- ropolitan areas of Seattle which has now resolved their sanitation problems. Further planning for the Lake Washington drainage area which is around Seattle was made impossible because the boundaries of many small sewer districts paid no attention to topography. Since the homeowner is generally unaware of certain facts, I am going to read a couple of items I have marked down. "Since the homeowner is generally unaware of or refusing to face the fact that his original water and waste facilities are temporary, he resists proposals that community systems be built until the hazards produce a crisis. Then the inclination is to take the cheapest alternative, usually a small, inefficient community system. Thus the homeowner pays twice for his water supply, and sometimes three times for sewage disposal, as the small community systems are absorbed into a larger, more economical, and more logical collection and treatment system." As relates to the cost in here, the cost figures which Parker gave you in his report, in the study done in Seattle one of the people involved in there who figured in the creation of the metropolitan system underscores the foolhardiness of unwise small community sewage facilities. "If we are ever to have utility services at reasonable cost, we must be prepared to make the long-range investment required and to stop pouring dollars down the rathole of inadequate facilities, many of which will be obsolete before they are paid for. The economic waste in stubbornly duplicating permanent sewage disposal and water supply facilities cannot be justified under any rational theory of local autonomy." "More difficult questions are posed when the policy and operating functions are considered. Water and sewer engineers, planner s and groups interested in general metropolitan political development agree that utility policy and usually operations, should be areawide in scope. However, different vantage points provide different criteria as to the preferred scope of a metropolitan operation. The engineers normally think in terms of the watersheds and drainage basins in the met- ropolitan areas. Topographical considerations are particularly important in the design of sewer lines because of the adherence to the gravity flow principle. Planners contend that water and sewer utilities should be provided on the basis of present and future service needs in terms of population, distribution and projected population growth, rather than from the standpoint - 4 - /""' RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves rORMIO C.F.HOECKELB.B.I:lL.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. of engineering feasibility. Finally there is the framwork of politics. Existing political boundaries must be taken into the equation in de terming the scope of metropolitan operation. In addition the mattern of political interests in an urban area affects the feasibility of a metropolitan approach of a particular scope. The idealistic supporters of metropolitan government are likely to insist upon regional inclusiveness. More realistic promoteres of areawide political solutions tend to set the boundaries of a metropolitan agency on the basis of securing the voter majorities requisite for its creation. Those interested primarily in solving a particular service problem want boundaries sufficient to secure efficient service and economics of scale, but not so broad as to introduce unnecessary political complications. Conflicts between these various points of view are inevitable in most metropolitan areas." They go into financing of a core area such as we are. Financing going into the developable area outside and I'll sum that up. What they have found, and my same philosophy. Its our responsibilit) I know it costs money, that obvious, but who else is going to do it and who better should do it than the people who are here and want to protect the valley. I don't like to pay taxes any better than anybody else or go out here and maybe put in some facility that somebody else is going to benefit from. But I think I'd a lot rather do that than watch them put in a facility or several down the valley that in the long run are going to do me more harm than a little bit of money I payout. It was done by Metro. The Metro man was here, an Attorney trying to shoot down Parker's plan, on the basis of something that they themselves, Metro, did every single thing that he accused Parker of doing and had to do it because they developed exactly that same way. Thats how Metro came about. Right now I have paid taxes in that district and a lot of other people have and I haven't gotten one red cent worth of sewer service out of it. There's 100 houses out on the west end of this town that haven't gotten any service and Turner accused Parker's plan of benefiting people down the valley. Well what the hell happened out here. Who got sewer service - not me - not the people in Snowbunny - or West Aspen but Holiday Inn which was unheard of at the time of Metro Sanitation formation. McBrides, it went through McBrides project on up, ran up all the way to Highlands, thats an awful lot of sewer line to come clear up from that plant go to Highlands to pick up that load when there is over 100 houses, I counted them on my way home, on the edge of town here and we are a stones throw, I can throw a rock from my house to where the main line went down through Red Butte Subdivision. Michael Garrish - For what reason was Red Mountain eliminated from that plant. Administrator Wurl - Thats my other point, Mike, When you talk about taking care of things on a regional basis they really didn't take care of it on a regional basis and that was purely a political move, I think. The reasons Red Mountain and Pitkin Green are not included is because they didn't wan to to be included. They threatened to be unhappy about it, they might vote against some of the things they wanted. Bill Mason - Who said that, who brought that up. We were never asked. Administrator Wurl - Well that was the thing on the part of Metro, I'm not necessarily accusing you. Bill Mason - No, I know, but I never heard of any meeting or being even asked for it. Michael Garrish - Would the residents of Red Mountain readily accept the sewer. - 5 - ,,-"_._,..,..-'"..-..~-~-_._"'---_.~_.,-., -.. /""' RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM 10 C,F.HOECKELB.B.ItL.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Bill Mason - Yes, we would love the sewer up there. Dale Mars - I would. Administrator Wurl - Let me just run through this. I'll get back to that point. All of these statements that I have marked in here, if you would take the time to review, you can see what it is they're saying. They point out one other thing which I wanted to point out to you. If we don't do this, if we don't consider and I'm not advocating parker's repot, "Jakes" or "petes". What I am saying to you is that it is our obligation to con- sider this whole valley in dealing with these problems and if this valley needs an areawide sewer plant then we'd better get it and we'd better get it quick. If we don't, the Federal Government, the State Government are going to do it for us. There are illustrations in the United States where the State has been forced to take over the location of sanitation plants and they tell you. They'll say to the valley, like the Roaring Fork, they will say, you want to build a sewer plant 5 miles downstream from Glenwood Springs and thats where all of you are going to go. We just recently received in the mail a copy of a Presidential order or executive order from the President to various departments of HUD and other various people telling them the criteria that they now have established for grant applications or consideration of same. One thing, the state has got to set up regional planning areas. The State has done this. There is another level that is going to be reviewing your grant applications. And if you have not made every attempt to do your planing of everything, not just utilities but everything on a regional basis, you are going to be hard pressed to get a grant. They're telling you that in everyother page in this thing, every commission, every recommendation that this commission made tied that to it. In California it got so bad and this is the thing I wished you all had time to read, this is a study done by the State Assembly dealing with the problems of special districts and the fragmentation of government. At this point I'll read you, I'm getting a little out of context here but I want to read you a statement out of here. This deals with special districts and why they ~~2~ the type of thing we are trying to do here this areawide business and how it comes about. It says, "The influence of functional professional (specialist in a particular service) probably is present in most programs where all three levels of government have a responsibility of the service involved. The special district device permits the functional professional to bypass the normal governmental process of at least one if not two or three levels of government. Of the second group, those who sell materials or services to districts the commission concludes that the second type of special interest group influencing the use of special districts consists of various individuals and enterprises which stand to benefit economically, " and this point I am directing right at Turner, McLaughlin and the bond bird - Kircher. "Not only in the creation of special districts but from its continuance. This report concludes that attorneys, bond coun- sels, equipment makers and engineers, public accountants and others." Thats the reason those three guys were here. What they care about this valley is nothing. They're here to foster their own interest and keep the districts going. In addition I wanted to mention when I was talking about the things that generated these people to have a study done, there were a lot of local people concerned about it. I have here a letter from Mrs. Paepcke that you have all read in the paper, of course, admitting she had an interest in the matter but before there were any consideration about that sewer plant located on that piece of ground, she had alot of other concerns and interest in this community which I think she has reflected. One of the people who appear- ed at the meeting, trying to shoot it down, earlier this year sent out a letter - 6 - F RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOll1ll10 C.F.HOECKELB.O.ltl.CO. P & z / 12/9/69, continued. or memorial to everybody asking that he had initiated at an ASD meeting calling for regional planning joint efforts. One of the things I want to read you from that resolution. Some of the things they felt would be over- come by this joint planning effort. '~hereas, the Aspen Sanitation District is one of more than 15 special districts within the county that tax, plan and spend public moneys to achieve special limited objectives. Whereas, such fragmented activities in spite of the attempts to coordinate planning informally often prevent these districts from acint upon, considering, or even knowing anything about opportunities for the pooling of resources. And Whereas, the narrow objectives of the districts often justify or result in the following practices: unnecessary competition for tax talent and land resources within the county, unnecessary conflicts between districts because they have planned projects independent of each other, wasted opportunities for the pooling of resources to obtain multiple use of sights required for public purposes, the hiring of different planners from time to time, engineers and so forth in order to accomplish piecemeal ob- jectives which mayor may not be consistent with the long range environmental gpals of the residents of this valley or county, piecemeal construction projects" and it goes on. I just wanted to point out how sometimes your thinking can change. Now I agree with that. Mayor Barnard - Who wrote that. Administrator Wurl - Dwight Shellman. I agree with that and that's the thing I am trying to express to you and thas what I want to see and I think and I know thats what the City wants to see and that is what we are interested in. I want to refer to Dunaway's comment on that because I want to refer in just a few minutes before I finish up and I will, to a recent editorial. When that resolution came out, here is what he had to say. "Thatpart of the recent Aspen Sanitation District memorial which explained the estimates of population may exceed 47,500 was frightening to us, it was a reminder as was the reminder that there were more than 15 special districts within the county." He was frightened by that and that he agreed wholeheartedly with the creation of this council to coordinate all these things and to do away with this fragmentation and all the problems and begin to plan on a valley wide, areawide basis. Thats what Mr. Dunaway had to say in February of 1969. Now, I don't think I have to remind you in November or December of 1969 he is just raising Holy Ned with the people that try to plan areawide The only reason I point that out, and I wish to hell he was here, is because I like to punch at him once in a while. I wonder what the people think when early in the year some people are just telling you all the good things about areawide planning and then later in the year catching Holy Hell for doing it. I wanted to make mention of one other thing that I have passed over, why it is important to the City that separate district functions rock along at the same rate we are going and I don't think I could put it any better than a certain city manager - I don't know where he is from but anyway he helped to prepare a report on the effects of these problems. He says, well this is the total recommendation that all of them had agreed on. "Strong municipal programs for providing water and sewage services planned on an areawide basis and consistent with other urban level activities are indispensible, just like the wheels of a truck, you can't have 4 or 5 of them going 50 miles an hour and one or two out here going 20". I want to commnt briefly on some of the real innovations in the area of sewage treatment. The one closest to use is the Eagle development. That was another thing that motivated them to get a study underway. Thats the reason Parker was chosen. - 7 - -",~.,._~.~.,",,-"~'--""---'" -. RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOIlM'~ C. F.. HOECK El B. B. It L. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Because he had done that study and I'm not selling Parker but when they showed the results and comments from the State Health Department that relates to that Eagle valley plan, thats real progressive plan they have. But the most progressive of all is Lake Tahoe and I wish you would take the time to read that. They piped it 27 miles over humps 1400 feet high to solve the problem and they were dealing in the beginning with a 2 million gallon capacity plant. That sort of thinking, what they did is what we have to do, sit back look at our valley, determine what it is we've got, what we want to protect, what our goals are and go about doing it. We know it is going to cost a lot of money, but we've got more to protect here than Limon or Holyoke or Grand Junction. We've probably got more than anyother area in the whole state or maybe the country. Now I am going to go through this rather quickly. Oh, there is one other thing, I want to relate to Mr. Shellman's remarks here the other day. We were talking about whether the county would have the authority to do this legally. I just want to read you a letter. I wish Shellman was here because we quarrel a lot and I don't like to do this behind his back. Here is a letter he sent me in January of '69' and he said, "Dear Leon, Enclosed is a Colorado Bar Association advance sheet report of the opinion of the Colorado Supreme Court in the Garel vs the County Commissioners of Summit County, November 1968. This case confirms that the County Commissioners have the power to issue anticipation warrants and to use the funds to engage in municipal or special district function of sanitary sewage disposal. It would appear that the case has potentially broad implications for reasonably effective county government which could provide, for instance, longer range construct- ion programs for water distribution, sewage treatment, recreationmd so forth and appears to be within the capability of special districts which are now utilized to perform these functions in unincorporated areas." That was his feeling about the legal authority at that time. Now I told you about the problem of how I feel about the sewer going to the Holiday Inn and not to my house, didn't I. Then I might mention at the same time that one of the things, one of the most pressing areas is the east end, east of the river. Actually there was one areas where we have had over- flowing septic tanks and cesspools that would have been taken care of. None of those people are hooked up, there is a line that runs up there, stops across Highway 82 and thats it. I know thats a part of the plan and I'm not criticizing that part. What I am saying is if you compare their criticisms, that they made of the Parker Project, to the criticisms or to what they have actually done and because thats the way things are done. It tkaes time, Parker isn't anymore a magician than McLaughlin and I know it takes time to build. But I just want to close by saying that its unfair for those yahews to come up here from Denver, I don't want to ,.make no mistakes about who I am talking about, thats Turner, McLaughlin, Kirchern, with their own personal vested interest, and thats what they are concerned about. Because I have known those birds from a long long time. We've seen and had illustrated by other engineers and so called experts that come up here from everyplace on earth and telling us just how we ought to do it and why we ought to do it that way. Ninety-nine times out of 100 after you dig into it and find out why they want you to do it that way, is because thats the way it benefits them not Aspen. Its happened to us, we've made those mistakes. I am the first one to admit it. But what your dealing with is with these three guys jammping down the throats of the poor guys who are sitting on the board and they feel consciences about it here they've got three guys and they're telling them what theyought to do. But What I am asking you to do for godsake don't judge a thing as vitally important as the areawide solving of that problem on the basis of what those three yahews had to say. - 8 - RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOll1ll,I C.F.HOECKELB.B.&L.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Robin Molny - Relative to something you said very early, our obligations are relative to the master plan. Okay any alteration or amendment and so on I assume we make a recommendation one way or another then the City Council would also have to make a recommendation, right? And is it not true, in the beginning the proposition was to get the plant that is present- ly being built, meaning Metro, farther down the valley the objection was primarily raised by the County Commissioners wasn't it because of cost? Administrator Wurl - Well Robin, you're rather in a spot and time when I was not familiar with it but I have read the same things you have. I don't know. Your talking about the real early stages and that was before I came back, so I don't know. But I can tellyou from early '66' on or the develop- ment of Snowmass time Chairman Garrish - My recollection on that, Robin, is it wasn't the Commissioners it was the district within itself that couldn't provide enough taxable property to move it down that far, that was their argument. Robin Molny - Which is kind of what people are talking about now too. Administrator Wurl - There are some things that Parker says that I don't agree wi th. Robin Molny - Many of the points you made are relative to duplication, building and re-building and one of the basic arguments here is whether we haveone big plant down there or three major plants which is another proposition. So you not necessarily duplicate those facilities under another approach, right? You wouldn't obviate them necessarily because, even in Parkers plan he is very amorphous as to whether or not those plants get fazed out. He leaves that squarely up to the newly formed regional district to decide under its own egis. What was the reference you made to the wheels of a truck? Administrator Wurl - What I meant by that was everything has to be studied on an areawide basis. In other words, you can't have the water development program shooting for one goal and the sewer going the same way, the gas saying we're not going to serve anymore areas with gas. Robin Molny - Okay, we brought this up earlier. Here's a plant that is proposed for 88,000 people and you have enough water for 60,000 people under your present water ownership. You explained how that could be taken care of if indeed the population did go to 88,000 people. But I am not in total agreement with, I am in total agreement with a regional approach to every- fuing so that all the wheels go at the same rate. The point that I brought out at the public hearing wasif you built a plant big enough for that amount of population and you start to achieve that population with the highway that we are hassaling with right now, right, automatically becomes obsolete too. So thats one thing that makes this confused. And another thing that makes us confused is that we are getting reports diametrically opposed from two sets of engineers and they both have axes to grind, Leon. Six percent of 8 million bucks is a lot of money. Administrator Wurl - You don't have to remind me of that, I agree with you 100%. Thats why I say we here, the people in this valley, the P & Z's and the Council and the Commissioners have got to look at that, but look at it on a real sound basis of protecting what we have. I agree, I don't want Parker setting the basis on which we are going to live and I don't want ~~",~-,-"''''''''--'''''-'"~'''.'.^ - 9 - - , .. RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM 5~ C. F. HOECKEL B. B. II: L. CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. McLaughlin to do it. Robin Molny opinions. Where do you get an objective opinion relative to those two Administrator Wurl - I am trying to give you one. Robin Molny - Because we're laymen and all we can do once again without a planner is our best. Francis Whitaker - From the document you just quoted, "A plan for a regional system does not necessarily mean the region has to have a single integrated facility. It merely means that all of the alternatives of supplying water or disposing of it have been studied and that combination adopted which is best suited to the topography and the geography of the region. The selected combination might very well include several sources of water, several points of waste disposal and several separate systems and operating agencies." Administrator Wurl - That very well might be, thats a question in this restricted area. Francis Whitaker - Now, I have some questions on it. Can the new plant be justified unless it takes the sewage from the already existing plants. Administrator Wurl - No, neither could Metro, they pulled exactly the same fuing. Francis Whitaker - Okay, the Planning and Zoning Commission and the County Commission and the County and I assume the City has already approved these service plants for the Metro District. Is that correct? If we approve the Parker Plan that means we have to nullify that approval, don't we? . Administrator Wurl - I don't think so. Francis Whitaker - Dosen' t it amount to that. Administrator Wurl - You didn't nullify the activies of Aspen Sanitation as relates to Metro. Francis Whitaker - Let me go through these quickly, these are some of the points on which I base my objection. Would approval of the Parker plan prevent expansion of the present Metro District Plant and the Snowmass Plant? Administrator Wurl - I don't think so. Now I say that because dependent upon how far the Metro plant should be expanded before the cut off point. The same thing happened with ASD. After the Metro was formed, ASD got a grant to add to its plant and that had quite an effect on Metro's plant. The biggest part of the sewage that is going to be running through that plant is ASD but that didn't prevent them from expanding providing it was a part of the plan. Francis Wmitaker - That never went through the business of being officially a part of the master plan or having the county set up a district and take over the sewage. The next point I think is extremely important. Snowmass has a dual use for its water, they process it and they use it for irrigation of the golf course because they don't have enough water during the summer. It seems to me that with the water situation the way it is that that should be considered. You can't do anything with it if you have everything discharg- - 10 - ". ....~ _~u..~.~.,""..,"c,_",._ __.,. ~.. _. -,~,,,,.,..., ,_.. '-"". ...~.~,,~.~.._._- ,.----.--.~ +'- ,~.,-"....._~ ~'" /""' , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOR~ ,I C. F. ~OECKEL O. B. II l. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. ed at the Gerbazdale plant back into the Roaring Fork. You have yo ur other plants you can have a dual processing of water. The fifth point is and I think this has been mentioned enough times that 5% of the assessed valuation will benefit by the cost levied on 95% of the assessed valuation. The sixth point is that costs will be increased. I paid $2.50 a month for each of the sanitary services I have. That would be increased to $7.00 a month. Thats quite a sizable increase over a year. The tap fees will be increased. Administrator Wurl Thats coming. Thats one falacy in the Metro plant that I would just like to comment on. It is that the figures are not realistic in the light of what your going to do. Its true you go out to Holyoke like I say, if your idea is to build a sewage plant or system that will give you the cheapest sewage treatment you can get, they you're going to come up with one philosophy you're not going to li~. You might like it in Holyoke because you haven't heard anything. But you can't stand to do that in Aspen, Colorado. What we actually should be fussing and fighting about is getting the thing just as far away from here as we can get it. Contrary to what McLaughlin thinks, sewer plants look like hell and they stink and they always will. I've told him that and thats what I am saying to you. The most important thing we are protecting is esthetic values. Francis Whitaker - In some cases the mill levies will go up. Administrator Wurl - Yes Francis Whitaker - And the bond interest, thats a big cost item. Now from Roberts own statment it says it will take 3 or 4 years to create what probably should be done, thats a regional sewer authority system. The enabling legislation has to be voted on in 1970 and then the enabling legislation has to be passed by the legislature. .We have been talking about a regional planner and I don't think there is any urgency for this. I @n't see why we can't submit this thing to a regional planner before we amend the master plan on an engineer who came up and never even talked to the planning commission. I never even knew about this, I don't think anybody on the Commission did, until Leon Wurl handed us a copy and as I quoted from your book, a regional system does not necessarily mean just one plant. Administrator Wurl - I am not advocating that either. Francis Whitaker - It seems to me that Parker is, he is designing his entire plant on processing the sewage for the en;~ire 88,000 people. Administrator Wurl - I am not here to tell you the specifics in parker's report. Francis Whitaker - I have read it a number of times. Administrator Wurl - But what I am telling you, is that the basic guts of the report tell you that an arewide project is feasible and that is the thing that you have to consider and must do to protect the valley. Those guys are never going to do that, thats what planning commissions are for and as I say if you don't do it in a year or two the state will do it for you or the Federal Government. We just can't go on like we are, permitting each and every little entity to decide what it is thats going to happen to this valley. Its got to be the people who are sitting on planning and zoning - II - - RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves ~ORM!Q C. F. ~OrCKEL a. 8. It l. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. commissions who are looking over the whole thing, and saying fellows we're not going to let you do it. We're concerned about what you're doing in the valley, you're breaking it up, you're fragmenting the government, you're building all kinds of things we don't want to see and we want you to look at it on an areawide basis and this is the way we are going to do it. We're going to set up and approve an areawide plan and your going to have to live with that. Mayor Barnard - Mr. Chairman, I would like to say just one thing. Anybody that dosen't consider the sewage as an emergency situation in this valley is a damn fool, a blind fool. We've converted the Roaring Fork into a sewer now, if that isn't a situation that demands immediate action, I don't know what in the world does. Francis Whitaker - Well all I know is the report from the State Board of Pollution Control. Mayor Barnard - Well you don't believe that, thats the biggest farce I have ever read. Who took the sameple, you don't know do you. Well I know. Administrator Wurl - Francis, at the end of that very week, we went ~wn here and found raw sewage. Dale Mars - Out of those 15 districts aren't a lot of those way down below the so called Narrows where this plant is proposed like the Frying Pan, Redstone. Administrator Wurl - Oh, no. Dale Mars - These are all from the Narrows up. . Administrator Wurl - Dale, you know how many separate in Pitkin County, 54 separate little water systems. question are in the area this side of Gerbazdale. water deals there are The 15 to answer your Francis Whitaker = Leon, there was just one more point that I wanted to make or ask you or bring to the Commission. If this were a regional district and it was organized in the way all the other districts were organized and it was submitted to an election of the voters and they approved it, that would be one thing but this isn't being done that way. Administrator Wurl - It would have to be. Francis Whitaker - I have seen nothing to indicate that, that there would have to be an election to form this district. Mayor Barnard - You can't form a district without an election. Robin Molny - There would have to be a bond election. Chairman Garrish - Definitely. Mayor Barnard - How did they form the Metro -District. Francis Whitaker - Well, it would have to go through that same Chairman Garrish - Well, it would have to go through with this, the State Statutes require on districts - 12 - --. .' , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORIol ~I C. F. 1I0ECK EL e. e. It L. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Francis Whitaker - That I didn't know, I hear anticipation warrants and go ahead with this. of the discussions that we have had about the that the County can just issue Nothing has been said in any election procedure. Administrator Wurl - What I would like to suggest, if I am not out of line, what I have asked Parker to do and I have some concerns about specifics in this plan just like you do, I have asked him to reduce for me to present to you what you would have that would commit you to the regional concept or approach. In other words, what you would be asking the County to establish as the regional concept. He told me he was going to put on the plane this morning and we would have for tonight but it didn't get here. What I would like to get you to do, if you would, and unless you're of a mind to do it now, is to accept it on that basis. In other words, agree with the regional concept, the idea of the thing and those things that are in Parker's plan that deal with that. Thats the important thing. But as I say whether it is Parker, Homer, Joe or Mike Mayor Barnard - Well, Leon, as far as I am concerned, I am not even concerned with pipe size or any particular outfall line. I am merely interested in the concept. I have been right from the beginning. I think that it is the duty of this Commission to regard it in that light. Your not prepared to say how big any given pipe should be and neither am I. I am not even going to try, but I am going to try and keep that river in some kind of decent shape __ for recreation, fishing, canoeing and what have you. The way we're going now, gentlemen, its like Leon said its going to be too thick to drink and too thin to plow before long. Robin Molny - Well why don't you fill me in on one thing, we're getting a couple of different reports on whats happening. For instance, the Aspen Sanitation is coming up with a really high good BOD report, right. The 90%'s is that right or wrong. Administrator Wurl - Your right. Mayor Barnard - As of when. Robin Molny - It was very recent. Administrator Wurl - Well about a month ago. Robin, what we've got to do is wait about 10 days. If Metro isn't in operation within 2 weeks, they won't hit that. Robin Molny - Well let me ask you this. When is Metro scheduled Administrator Wurl - I think about December 15th. Chuck Fothergill - Probably next week. Mayor Barnard - Well maybe and maybe not, Mr. Fothergill. After I looked at that mess they've got out there in Chuck Worth's subdivision, I am not so sure. Chuck Fothergill - Thats all right. Mayor Barnard - Maybe you sayits alright, but you glibly say the 15th, I'm not all that sure about it. - 13 - ,.,._~_,_~~.",~,_,.",_ 0' __. ,".,~~,,~,,~~''''''r'~~'~~___ - , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves fOR'" 10 C. F. ~O"CKEL B. e. II l. CO. P & z, 12/9/69, continued. Robin Molny - Well you know the point that I am trying to make. Mayor Barnard - Robin I know, but you know its easy to talk pie in the sky= but go out and look at the mess they've got to grapple with and then see if Fothergill knows what he is talking about. Chuck Fothergill - What mess are you talking about. Mayor Barnard - Tearing up the City's water line and ripping out somebodys gas line that was a pretty big hassle yesterday afternoon and they were still grappling with it today. I don't know if you went down and took the trouble to look at it but it was there. Robin Molny - What I am driving at is the present new facility in conjunction with Aspen Sanitation when they both kick in together are going to provide certain results or not going to provide certain results. Mayor Barnard- Hopefully. Robin Molny - That is why I am taking kind of an issue with your statement about being extremely critical right now. Mayor Barnard - You mean right today. Robin Molny - When I say right now, I mean this winter. Mayor Barnard - I think it will be just a cliff hanger this winter. I really do. With both of them going, Robin, look at your capacity, you can add them both together andyour just barely up to the total demand of this community. Robin Molny - Then if its a cliff hanger, it makes them expand the plant, probably take care of it right. Mayor Barnard - I don't know, I don't have any crystal ball but I am just telling you that this winter I think that if both plants achieve BOD's of 90% that it will be some sort of a miracle. Chairman Garrish - Dale have you any further questions, I haven't heardfrom you. Dale Mars - On the plant there, I still feel that I am for quality waters but I just feel right now I am not against the regional plan but I feel we should go along with the plants that we have and I don't see where the economics at present warrant a plant down there. Robin Molny - Whatever we propose in the end we want to make sure that goes through, right. What I am talking about is the difficulty of getting that ~nd issue passed. Dale Mars - Whatever we do, we're all sitting here and don't want to see pollution of the water. Hopefully that the new plant by connecting on the others will give us those 90 BOD results that we are shooting for. Administrator Wurl - One thing, I think you have to think about Dale, is they say 1970, I don't think we could get this thing off the ground by 1970. Robin Molny - Yes, he backed off of that. - 14 - ., .,.-,._..~-,,,._~.._~...,,,".~~....-"._.. /""' RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOR!\! 10 c. F. ~O"CKEL B. B. 61 L. CD. P & z. 12/9/69, continued. Administratrr Wurl - Look at Metro, they started way back in 1965 and here it is almost 1970 and they're just getting done. I don't think those things can come about, the important thing is that you set the pattern, the guide- lines to which you want the valley to develop. I wouldn't even fuss about the economics of building a plant tomorrow, the next day. If you don't set the pattern within which these guys must do their thinking, your going to end up with a hodge-podge. Because you've got more people on the face of the earth just with the limited kind of thinking that McLaughlin has about how things ought to be done then you've got guys worrying and concern- ed for this valley. Francis Whitaker - I would like to ask you a question you've just touched on. You said Roberts is sending up some more information to lay the ground work and on Page 6-1 of his report he lists 3 alternatives there's a,b and c. One is that Pitkin County can install the trunk lines etc; b - a new sanitation district and c - which he recommends. Now are you proposing that he eliminate these other two proposals from his report and come in with his recommendation (c) which would be a district that would come to an agreement with the existing sanitation districts and become the sole agency for sewer treatment and so on and so on. Thats the regional idea. If we approve this plan with 3 alternatives, then we just leave the door wide open for anything to go. Administrator Wurl I don't know what plan he is going to submit. I told him Francis Whitaker - He is going to submit further information. Administrator Wurl - I told him to condense that in the light of the region- al concept because I told him that was the most important thing, that that was the thing we wanted to do. Robin Molny - If we wanted to get a third outside opinion, who would we go to without spending $8,000 dollars to start with. Administrator Wurl - Well, you would really be hard pressed because when you deal with any engineer in Colorado gosh only knows who their allied with and so forth. Robin Molny - Is there some Administrator Wurl - I think you could get a better picture of this thing if you yourselves read all the things you can about whats happening and whats best for the valley. You do it and don't put your stock in some guy from timbuctoo. Robin Molny - I am as "antsy" about saying this as you are about hearing it. But how about some educator that teaches people about engineering, like a professor or someone like that. Administrator Wurl - I'll tell you my honest to God feeling. I think that if you go outside the area of this valley, you don't get an honest appraisal of what is in our best interest. Robin Molny - I don't trust engineers as far as I can throw Niagara Falls, I never have. Mayor Barnard - Robin, stop back and think. Go back 3 years and what happened - 15 - . __~,,,,......___._._.,~.__......_~,.,_.~__.~~e.'.. . ' ~_.___,"".o<~."... ',;'- /""' , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM" C. r. tlOECKEL 8. B. It ~. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. to the City when we tried to do pavement improvement district #66, we had a big hot shot outfit named H. D & R and they screwed that thing up so badly that we finally had to hire Roger Mahnke as the City Engineer and put it into his hands to get it straightened around. You must not think these people have 2 or 3 heads because they don't. Administrator Wurl - H. D & R had a sad experience with Denver's Metro. The point is I am confident, I would rather it were in the hands of the local people. Chairman Garrish - I very much agree with you,Leon. Administrator Wurl - The P & Z, now you can't, its something that you have to be on top of and thats why the P & Z's decide these things. Because they have the material to review and they have to decide it. You can't go to Jake out on the street and say what do you think because he is clouded with all the biased opinions of Dunaway and whoever the hell Robin Molny - My point is, fundamentally Roberts is going to come up with something that we will be basing our recommendations on, right. Probably will even have some wording in it. I hear reports that Eagles in big trouble, Eagle valley is in big trouble with their sanitation district. They report from somebody saying that, relative to Parker and Associates, anything that has to do with money take a long hard look or something like that. Administrator Wurl - You know who to ask if you want to know. I would pick up the telephone first I would read that Tahoe thing and just see how pro- gressive people can be and thats the way we really have to think because we're headed for trouble if we don't take care of what we've got here. But pick up the phone and call the president of the sanitation district and who- ever you want in Vail and find out what the situation really is. Somebody who knows whether they're in trouble, satisfy yourself. Robin Molny - What it all boils down to is you have to keep looking at this thing Mayor Barnard - Well gentlemen, it wasn't a month ago that we went through this agonizing election and I listened to all the canidates and that includes you Mr. Molny, although you weren't running for office but it seemed like it, almost and I listened to a lot of enthusiastic talk about regional planning and a regional planner and how we should look at the big picture and now we have an opportunity to do just exactly that and you two, you and Mr. Whitaker, are about as nervous as two whores in church. I don't under- stand this, one minute you say lets do the big regional thing and now given an opportunity you now hedge and back off from it. What in the world is the problem. Robin Molny - I am all for looking at things in that manner. Mayor Barnard - Well you've been looking at it for how long now. When are you finally going to Robin Molny - We're not satisfied that this is the right particular approach, for more reasons that have come to light just now. Mayor Barnard - Let me ask this. What is it that dosen't satisy you about it. - 16 - _.--."-,~,~,..-...,,.-." ..._.".-......_~~-.,..~._"'.."'., -. RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOR"''' C.F.HOECKELB.B.&l.CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Robin Molny - One of the things that dosen't satisfy me especially is how the population projections were made. I feel it is my personal dedicated opinion that if you have 88,000 people in this valley its a dead valley. Mayor Barnard - Well that may well be, I won't even argue about the pop- ulation figures all I know is thatit is going to get to be more than it is now and if it does get to be more than it is now, we're going to need more facilities than we have now. Robin Molny - What I am relucant to do is recommend this report be accepted What I am willing to do is talk about regional concept and get the wording correct when we make our recommendation. Mayor Barnard - What is correct. Robin Molny - Boy, you've got me right now. Administrator Wurl - Robin, you've just hit on a point and thats why I think you can do it better locally. You throw around figures and I think Turner or McLaughlin, one of them said something to the effect that 5% of the people affected by this would be below now existing sewer facilities. That one statement there are 8,000 - Elay is developing their thing down there for 8,200 some people my report shows. Now thats 10% of the 88,000 right there. There not counting Gerbazdale, Woody Creek and thats why I think you should stay away from those technical things which all of them are throwing around and don't know what they're talking about. The people who know better about this valley and that includes our e~gineers all our onsulting engineers we have to keep up-dating them all the time thats one of my points. These are the people who know best, we see what is happening. Francis Whitaker - Mr. Roberts is going to submit .further information acco~ding to Leon and I don't think we shouHd take any action on it tonight. Chairman Garrish - First of all I would like to give you the Chairman's opinion onthis. A lot of you may not realize that I have had a lot of experience in City Administration and I am very familiar with Aspen and a lot of them probably don't cater to my ideas, don't want any part of them but I am going to tell you something I wished they had taken some of mine and less of a hell of a lot of people who don't live here and care. Thats definitely the way I feel. One thing that perturbs me particularly about this thing is the economy of it, because of interest rates etc. But as an over all plan, I cannot, as passed Mayor, passed Councilman of the City of Aspen, member of the boards, having gone through building and reconstruction of water in the City of Aspen which I thought would suffice for 20 or 30 years and now finding out their building on passed the original system. First of all the Aspen Sanitation in my experience I remember when they were doing this when I was Mayor and I thought that Aspenis 20 years from now. They proposed that their plant and Ripple & Howe were their engineers, Ripple & Howe sold the Aspen Sanitation a bill of goods, just as McLaughlin is selling Aspen a bill of goods right today and the surround- ing district. And I say this because upon Red Mountain have you ever counted the number of houses up there. The other day just driving the road, actually 57 homes and I know that the majority of those people up on Red Mountain would welcome a sewer outlet, somewhere to put it. They weren't even included in the Metro District. That is good planning and zoning, thats alright, we mn't overlook this one again. Now as far as a planner and a zoner, over all planner they call it. Gentlemen, I'm going to call your attention to some- - 17 - /""' RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves fOR..,ll C,f. HOECKEL O. a.& L. CO. P & z, 12/9/69, continued thing and I am not lying I've got factsto prove it. The first man who drew up planning and zoning for the City of Aspen was an organization by the name of Trafton & Bean, it was a damn mess, and we've got to agree we have done nothing but amend it and amend it, and tried and tried. Next we got a guy from Wyoming some joker that had nothing but pile-ons and ballons set up for the intercity and if you haven't seen them, I'll take you down to the City, They're a matter of record if they haven't been destroyed, they're still there. Then we got Wiener, my God, did any of you see what Wiener wanted for us. We had the same damn thing that Grand Junction got. Cement, umbrellas, cement curb, brick walls and plants to kind of sub plant something that wasn't supposed to be there originally anyhow. If your going to make a damn mall, make it but for Christ sake don't destroy what you've got in the bus- iness area and exists. And if you don't believe me that it is destroying go down and count the vacancies signs on Main Street in Grand Junction right today. I was down there the other day and the first time I was down there there were three and now I count five and I didn't even travel half of Main Street in Grand Junction. Then we had Brown and I am telling you do you people realize that we have put in and I am going to conservatively estimate, over 1/2 million dollars into this planning and zoning and what have we got, the problems are still ours. Has anybody answered that question for you, they haven't for me since I have been here. I amjust going to show you for a shining example whats happening with east Aspen. You talk about the old parts of town needing urban renewal, the new part is where we should start md by God argue with me. We should start in the new part of Aspen and do it. What should have been done in planning in Aspen and I will say this because somebody didn't have the foresight, all of our condominiums and everything else and I live in that area and I wouldn't want them anymore than anyone else should have been over in that area against the sunny slopes of the hill and away out of the area, away out of the community, eliminate parking problems, traffic hazards, trash, our business area would have remained quaint, we'd had a clean quaint community that would have kind of stayed the community that it is. But no, heres a planner, look what they've done to us, these are facts, I can prove them, they're existing righ today. We think we are progressing, we're going down hill. Now we'll get back to sanitation and sewage and the problems that exist in Aspen and the surround- ing area. One of the most beautiful spots in the County of Pitkin is Maroon Lake. Did you see what the Forest Service has done or have you gone up and seen what they use for water up there. Have you gone up and seen what they have provided for sewage. Well next summer take a look at it. When you go by the crannies hold your nose, whan you walk by the water system nothing treated, piped into these trailer camps, if somebody gets typhoid its the Cityof Aspen that 'give it to them not the trailer camp at Woody Creek or Maroon Creek or the trailer camp up at Difficult with the open crannies etc. Believe me a lot of this needs looking into and I still say and I am just as much a penny pincher as anyone else in this community and I am economy minded. When I was the Mayor of Aspen I looked to 20 years ahead and I will definitely say that I missed it by 20 years. And when somebody tells me that this 88,000 figure is superfluous, I'll have to disagree with them. Aspen, on the boards right today ask the architects they're is more for next year than there is this year and this year workmen can't even take care of half of what is going on. You've got to think in the future gentlemen and as much as I hate to do this I figure that my fee on the Metro Sanitation District is not going to be $7.00 I figure its going to be near $15.00 a month just my conservative estimates of it cause these people who have put in Metro took the engineers word for it like Aspen San- kation took the engineers word and I will still say this don't believe a damn planner, don't believe a damn engineer because every time you get in - 18 - -. # RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves fORM" C.F.HOECKE;LB.B.Il:L,CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. with these guys they're filling you with a bill of goods that you don't see until your done with it. Now there is another thing we hollar about our problems in this area, Grand Junction they did not have a metro sanitation district and all of you are aware of Grand Junction had a little outlying area there and the people in the outlying area took them 3 years to get on the Grand Junction sewage. Cause Grand Junction didn't have the facilities, they had no regional sewage board or district, this was a mess. Denver is experiencing the same kind of thing these outlying areas don't have the provisions and they wantin on Denver. Denver hasn't got it, we can't give it to you. I am thinking of long range thinking. I definitely feel this way about this whole situation that this isn't going to transpire in 6 months this isn't going to transpire in one year. If this Metropolitan Sanitation goes through it will be a matter of five years before it ever jells. And I am like Mr. Whitaker and I think the rest of the board will agree with me. I really believe its none other than the people of this community that should vote this district in, if they will. That you vote this bond issue. You know it is an amazing thing, we American's are a dirty damn race and I'll defy you tod if fer with me. Look at our smog go to California some day and drive from San Diago to San Francisco. This is supposed to have been a newly modern built area, its a stinky mess. Smog, conjestion traffic, everything is just out of line. We as Americans we just bring these problems upon ourselves. We do it and its because of the fact we don't want to put out an extra buck. I know this here is going to cost me an extra buck but I am in favor of it because I feel for my community and for the area I have spent my life in I've got to give a little too. I don't take it all. The one thing that amazes me on this whole thing that we have got money for the most plush parks here,we have money for underground electric system when the new one that we have now hasn't even amortized itself. We have money for the best schools, ~iggest schools and the most flashy schools, we've got money for airports that bring in 2 or 300 planes like we had on Thanksgiving weekend yet our dam highway is a hazarQ and I will venture to say that there are 200 people come in on the highway when there is 10 people come in by airplane. And that is being very conservative. We've got all this money for all these things, we can just pour it out when it takes to cleaning up and taking care of our mess, we American people are just lacking the fortitude to say welllets sacrifice a little and do it right once and for all. Now like the Metro District, I have critized against them, I think I am entitled to critize them. The one big area right now Red Mountain there were no provisions made in the Metro District, one area,still expanding areas just starting, its ridiculous that that wasn't included. I t should have been included. What kind of thinking is this. Then we go back to the Master Plan and our planners lets get back to those boys again. There's three men and if you look at what our Master Plan cost us and we have a beautiful picture there, God forbid, its a beautiful picture, but you go through the Master Plan and these guys that are professional planners very conservatively mention water, sewage, electricity, commercial area, they just don't do it. Now I have taken enough of your time and I am wound up now, we will just see what is the will of the Board on this. Robin Molny - We're still waiting on Roberts thing to come in, right? Chairman Garrish - Whats the will of the Board on this thing. Mayor Barnard - I think we have plenty of information, what do you think he is going to come up with. He has already given you a voluminious report. Do you think he is going to pull someother rabbit out of the hat. - 19 - - / , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FOR'" 10 c.F.HOECKHB.B.lll.. co. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Robin Molny - Well he is going to come up with what Leon mentioned. He is going to provide information relative to a regional concept. Mayor Barnard - Your just staling now. Robin Molny - Thats what he said. Mayor Barnard - No, thats not what he said. All we are asking for here now is an acceptance of a broad concept. If you genetlemen are going to continue about pipe size Robin Molny - No, we do 't want to do that. Mayor Barnard - Then what are you arguing about, what in the world do you think Parker is going to come up with that you already don't know. Dale Mars - I'm arguing I don't think we're going to have 88,000 people, I don't think it is economically feasible. If there is going to be a regional plant I am for it but maybe it should go down to Glenwood and they'll say they don't want it there, keep the whole drainge basin and then you keep going on till you get down to Mexico with it. So we have to hope that every sewer plant that goes in has to be a big one, like 47,700 is going to be a good one. I see the ones that we have now, but I think the one that is going in now is going to be good and its not its going to keep the BOD at 90. Mayor Barnard - It isn't even going to begin to take care of the capacity. Dale Mars - There again I can't argue with you, we have to goby the enginers. Mayor Barnard - What are the figures now for Godsake, you've got a capacity that is already equal to sum of capacity of two plants, now Mike how long is that going to last. Dale Mars - They will have to go on and build the 2nd phase right now. Mayor Barnard - Okay, so they build the second phase at the existing location and you tell me how your going to pick up the sewage from the Lee Jones Trailer Court, Gerbazdale trailer court. Dale Mars - I agree with what your saying and all these others Mayor Barnard - Where is that going to go in the river. Dale Mars - Possibly the plant should have been built further down but the ,idea is it is there now as what few were missing Mayor Barnard - What are you going to do, add ot it then at the same location, is that the way you see a regional thing. Dale Mars - They'll have to go further down but it will have to be another plant to serve those people. Francis Whitaker made a motion that we table action on the Parker Report pending receipt of further information from Mr. Roberts. Seconded by Robin Molny. - 20 - -. , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves FORM" C. F. ~O<CKn e. B. 8- L. CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Mayor Barnard - I think this is nothing but a delaying tactic to finally face up to the whole problem and I would like to go on record as saying so. This has been a typical tactic on the part of Mr. Molny and Mr. Whitaker right along and I object strenously to it. I think it is nothing but an attempt to ham string the whole program. Roll call vote - Whitaker aye; Molny aye; Mars aye; Barnard nay; Garrish nay. Motion carried. References used by Administrator Wurl include the following: Assembly Interim Committee on Municipal and County Governments in California; Commission Report - The Problems of Special Districts in American Government; Intergovernmental Responsibility for Water Supply and Sewage Disposal in Metropolitan Areas; publi Words Magazines - The South Lake Tahoe Water Reclamation Project, Protecting Lake Tahoe Against Eutrophication; The Law of Planning and Land Use Regulations in Colorado; Memorial; Correspondence. Chairman Garrish request when the report is received from Mr. Roberts, City Administrator Wurl so inform the Commission and a meeting will be scheduled. Mr. William Mason was present representing the Episcopal Church of Boulder owners of the property located on Cooper Avenue just west of the Strong's Apartments. Mr. Mason questioned the Commission if a zoning change could be acquired for this property or should a variance be sought. Would like zoning for multiple use. Commission informed Mr. Mason he might try for planned unit development, to try for re-zoning or a variance will probably receive opposition. Public Hearing - Junk Yard, Construction Yard and q~rvice Yard Definitions a nd Regulations - Fen ing. Commission request Mr. Whitaker and Mr. Molny give their suggestions to the City Attorney to draft a sample ordinance for the Commission to review. Mayor Barnard excused. Hillyard Park and Golf Course - Mr. Whitaker informed the Commission these two items never appeared before the P & Z prior to Council's consideration. Whitaker moved that the Planning and Zoning Commission request the City Counil submit Hillyard Park and Golf Course to the Planning and Zoning for study and recommendations and inform the Commission the form in which these recommend- ations should be made. Seconded by Mars. Roll call vote - Whitaker aye; Mars aye; Molny aye; Garrish aye. Committee Reports - Mr. Whitaker submitted a rough draft of projects before the Commission. Chairman Garrish request the Secretary re-type the rough draft submit a copy to each member and appear on the next agenda. Mr. Molny reported he has been working on indexing and stream margins and buildings that look like signs. Also stated Attorney Delaney has come up with a proposal on buildings that look like signs for the County. Mr. Molny to submit a copy to the Commission and these items appear on the next agenda. Chairman Garrish request the next agenda include an informal discussion on the Master Plan. Mr. Molny request the Secretary obtain from Mr. Wurl material relating to flood zones. - 21 - ,...~,-"'~"'-_..."""~'" -. , , RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 100 Leaves rOR..,!1 C.F,HOECKELa.B.&L,CO. P & Z, 12/9/69, continued. Whitaker moved to adjourn at 7:10 p.m., seconded by Mars. All in favor, meeting adjourned. /~ ~ ~ -"') ( / ----.-:..'~ -, ,--"x-J ______/ Lorraine Graves, Secretary .,,~-_.__..,<-_.._----~.;--_..~...,.~-,..-